A Beginner’s Guide to Mindfulness: Live Event w/ Manoj Dias

Mindfulness doesn't mean just being calm. It means [music] being really available to the present moment. >> Manoj Diaz, >> Sri Lankan meditation teacher, founder of the open app. >> He is an animated speaker, humble teacher and thought leader in the mindfulness space. [music] >> You are not your thoughts. When I heard that, I think that was the first moment I'd experienced conscious mindfulness. Like I heard my thoughts for the first time. All we have is our attention and where we decide to place it ends up dictating the trajectory of our lives. >> Loneliness is continuing to rise. Mental health rates are continuing to get worse. You don't meditate to get good at meditation. You meditate to get good at life. We're really good at being anywhere but here. The moment we have to just be with [music] oursel, it's very hard. If we're not our thoughts, then who are we? And she's How long do we have? Yeah. [laughter] [applause] Look at this. Thanks for coming out everybody. Nice to see so many happy faces. Uh very excited for this conversation. Manoj I think the best place to start is with you making the case for mindfulness. Why should we care about this instead of just yada yadaing it? >> We've all heard for the longest time this word mindfulness, you know, it had like a real moment, I think around the '9s when everyone was practicing mindfulness way to to work with stress. You know, John Capeten really introduced mindfulness-based stress reduction and that became the prevailing connection to to that word. >> Um, over time it's becoming so many different things. like you know I've worked in different industries where mindfulness can be how you perform at work for example it can be mindful cooking um I once saw a workshop on mindful sex and I'm like this is cool but what does this word mean these days right and so I'm kind of a little flexible on on what it means but for me I come from um the Buddhist system so that was how I was born and raised so for me mindfulness is a way to really free myself from suffering uh for for me to overcome the patterns that keep on happening in my life, my own neurosis. And so, if that is interesting to people, I think you should care about mindfulness. But I also think it's interesting in a place like, you know, New York, which is kind of wild. I'm I've been living here for a year and a half and it's kind of insane. >> And I'm like, if I didn't have a mindfulness practice, would I be okay? And I'm like, I don't know. >> Yeah. Share a little bit about your entry point to this because you're Sri Lankan. And you were sort of raised in this tradition, but it took you a while to realize uh you had to develop your own relationship with it. >> Yeah. I think people assume cuz when they look at me got a shaved head, I'm brown. I'm like, he probably meditates and I [clears throat] didn't. I This was never um it was never a part of my life. Like in Sri Lanka, mindfulness and and Buddhism is is more of a religion, whereas in the West, it's becoming more of a philosophical practice. And so for me, I came to it through suffering. Like that was my entry point. I was in marketing and and advertising. Um, and if anyone's worked in marketing and advertising, you probably know this story. Had like an anxiety attack one day. Uh, was trying to figure out what that was cuz I'd never experienced anxiety or or even a panic attack. Um, went through all these different ways to try and fix myself. You know, went and saw psychologists, psychotherapists, took medication, took time off. Um, and nothing really helps me unless until a friend told me one day, uh, come to a yoga class. And I, and no this is actually what I said. I said, I don't know any Lululemon. I can't. >> Yeah. >> Like, um, he's like, no, no, come. There's there's lots of hot girls there. [laughter] It's also what he said. Um, and that got me. So, I was like, okay, I'll I'll come. Uh, and there was no hot girls there. And uh no Lululemon, but there was like five guys over the age of 70. It was an ex Buddhist meditation teacher and he was really talking about mindfulness. He was talking about meditation and developing awareness. And I think that moment was the first time in that class when he was saying you are not your thoughts. He kept on repeating that you are not your thoughts. When I heard that, I think that was the first moment I'd experienced conscious mindfulness. Like I heard my thoughts for the first time, you know, you're never going to be anything or, you know, you're always going to be sick or what are you going to have for lunch? And I was actually just able to see it without having to embody every single thought that popped into my mind. >> Why is it that the western mind and the western way of life is so resistant to mindfulness? Is it our self-identification with our thoughts as being the definition of ourselves? What is the source code that makes it more difficult for our culture to kind of cotton on to the benefits of the lifestyle that you espouse? >> I don't know if it's necessarily western culture in general, but I think it's definitely in places that are very metropolitan where there's a lot of industry. I mean I can feel like it at times like I'm I wake up in the morning to work to produce so I have to perform so I have to be optimized so I have to have this 30 minute morning routine just so I can get to my day and get to sleep at night at a certain time and wake up and do it again. So I think there's this prevailing belief that slowness is almost antithetical to our way of being. And the interesting thing is mindfulness doesn't mean just being calm. It actually doesn't mean just being slow. It means being really available to the present moment. And I think when we're available to the present moment, we're much more attuned to to what's here versus the anxieties, the stress, the worry, and the future thinking, which I think culturally maybe in the west we're really good at. We're really good at being anywhere but here. Um, and maybe people in the east have figured it out. But then, you know, I see people in Scotland, they're [clears throat] pretty mindful and present. >> It is insane that the only thing that's actually real is the present moment, which is constantly fleeting, and yet we live our lives persistently, you know, rehashing things that happened in the past or tripping out on what's going to happen in the future. And we're so rarely actually available, to use your word, in the present moment, which is >> reality. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard though, right? The reality for a lot of us is hard to be with cuz the moment actually, has anyone gone on holiday recently? And the moment you go on holiday, you get like sick or you just get tired, right? And it's because we're we're operating under this level of um intensity that the moment we have to just be with ourself, it's very hard >> or we're restless and we're immediately looking for the activity to distract ourselves from. >> Everything that we've been running away from just is like hello. >> We bring it with us. >> We [laughter] bring it with us. Exactly. Yeah. Uh, one of the things that that you're known for is making these practices, ancient practices, accessible to Western audiences. And I'm interested in the tension there because the way to appeal to the modern person who is living in the three-dimensional world is to say this is the way to reduce your anxiety. This is the way to improve your relationships. This is how to be more productive at work. This is all kind of wrapped in this language of optimization. You know, that's how you get people to pay attention and go, "Oh, I need that. >> It's an entryway, but it's not really what this is about." >> I mean, I think it can be to be honest. I just think that's a very superficial layer to this experience. I think we have looked for ways to integrate mindfulness in a way that feels appeasing to society and culture. And you know, John Kabat Zin like he's the one that everyone talks about as being the one that really was able to integrate mindfulness into contemporary culture. And he did it through the lens of the medical system. He said, you know, if you're stressed, do these techniques. What he didn't add was like, okay, look at your mind as you're experiencing life. Look at the way you're behaving. Look at the morality. look at the ethics around it, which is not as cool as saying, "Do the techniques and you'll feel better." Right? >> If you tell someone to live more ethically, to not lie, to not steal, to not harm someone else, that's a lot more confronting. Um, so I think that's that's how we got it into society into culture. But then I use the example of kind of eating an avocado with the skin on. It's kind of like it's okay, but it's not great. But then you peel the skin, you eat the avocado, maybe add a little salt and lemon. I don't know. It tastes way better. And I feel like when you go a little deeper into mindfulness and meditation, that's where the real taste and the real essence of the practice really begins to show itself. >> Yeah. Maybe leading with uh the existential crisis of like if I'm not my thoughts, who am I? [laughter] Might not be the way to bring people in the door, I guess, is what you're saying. But >> if we're not our thoughts, then who are we? >> And jeez, how long do we have here? >> Yeah. I mean, [gasps] [laughter] I mean, I think that's a that's a that's a contemplation. And it's for me, it's I think the easiest way to explain it to secular audiences is that it's not so much a question of if we're not our thoughts, who are we? It's that can we feel this essence of interdependence with each other. I think we focus too much on our individual selves. That's why hyperindividualism is so uh venerated in today's society and culture. But for me, it's less about me actually. It's more about how am I in relationship to my wife, to my uh new friend, to the people that I'm meeting every day. How can I um move through the world in a way that doesn't cause any harm, but actually does the opposite, you know, cultivates presence, creativity, compassion. I think they're much more interesting to me now than really trying to figure out my own individual life path and spirituality. >> Yeah. I don't know the exact quote, but the Daly Lama said something like obviously a different tradition, but he said something like the point of meditation isn't to certainly not to like optimize. It's not to like reduce your anxiety and improve your sleep. It's not even necessarily to make you a better person. It's so it's to make other people better. >> Yeah. >> Is a really beautiful sentiment and it gets to that >> uh idea that you're referencing around uh you know venerating individualism and understanding that the happiness we lack is in the service we have yet to avail ourselves of for >> a beautiful way to say it. Yeah. But I think if you tell people do this it's you're not going to get any benefit out of it. you're going to be a you're going to be able to serve people better if you do this. Like I don't know like but like optimization. >> Yeah, >> I'm in the door. And speaking of which, there's nothing wrong with that. Like I'm into optimization. I'm an athlete. I know you've worked with athletes. You've worked with NBA players. What has that experience been like? And what are the benefits that you've seen in an athletic context with the people that you've worked with? Yeah, I think it's interesting when um when I get the opportunity to work with athletes, whether it's, you know, professional football players. I'm from Australia, so I call them football players, not soccer players, um or NBA players. >> Okay, the World Cup's going on right now. You have more more liberal bandwidth to get away with that. >> Great. It's interesting. I sometimes what comes up for me is, oh, I have to present this stuff in a way that's palatable to them. Um, and sometimes it's true like they have high performance teams and you know I have to be very careful around the language that I use. Um, but ultimately one lesson I've learned is that whether they're athletes or whether they're just individual people, old or young, we're all kind of searching for the same things. We want to be more available to the present moment at its at its essence. And I think the context and the relationship to athletes is when they're more available to the present moment, they're able to access their training. they're able to access more creativity on the pitch or on the court. They're able to let go of errors much quickly. So, their response time um is just more it's just more elevated. And so, that same context can apply outside of that, right? If you are just present and engaged in this moment, you're not overthinking about what you did before or your what's going to happen afterwards. You're just here and there's a natural flow to the experience when when that happens. >> Yeah. I think athletes are pretty good when it comes to the mind body integration. They understand how to >> that this is one thing and they're familiar with the flow state and the no thought that you know kind of is part and parcel of their best performances and trying to be in that place more consistently is going to unlock better performance uh more consistently. At the same time, I think athletes are also pretty good at turning off the communication that their body is trying to, you know, when their body is trying to tell them something because they can compartmentalize their pain or they can block things out. And I'm curious if that's ever come up. Like that can be ultimately a block. Like I can't deal with any of that because I have to do this right now. Shutting down that communication. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. Um, one of my favorite I'm a big Rich Roll fan by the way. So, it was like a it was like a big moment for me when Rich said he wants to talk to me. Um, one of my favorite conversations of yours, I think it's with Dr. Ellen Langanger, >> and she talks about um, one of the many conversations I think you've had with her, but one of the conversations is around >> uh, decision- making and how so much of it is like a mindset. you know, I'm not going to do any service to her by quoting what she said, but um I think there's two schools of thought to be completely honest because interceptive awareness is important. Um I think it's important in uh the context of athletics, but it's also important outside of that and I think it's interesting how we respond to that. So, you know, Ellen Langanger's um am I saying her name right? >> Yeah, Dr. Ellen Langanger. >> Dr. Ellen Langanger. Um >> she's the best, by the way. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> you know, she kind of says it's simply a a decision like we're capable of doing so much more than, you know, we think we're capable of. Um, and I think there's moments when we have to really listen to the body and be intelligent in how we respond to that. Maybe um slowing down to speed up is is an option versus just going so hard out like David Gogggin style and just being able to do incredible things. But for the average person, I think it's um the average athlete and I consider myself like a very average athlete. I think it's important that I listen to my body because there have been times I used to play semi-professional cricket back in Australia. >> Oh wow. >> I don't know if you know what cricket is but that was uh that was my area of expertise and there was so many times I just wouldn't listen to my body and I would get injured. Yeah. You know >> her her quote her most famous quote Dr. Carolyn Langanger is stop worrying about making the right decision and make the decision right. And I think what she's saying in between the lines there is your intuition like you your your heart intelligence knows what's right. And when you make that decision quickly, it's really coming from that heart place of knowing what's right for you. But in our culture, we overindex on the mind. And so we want to run circles and circles and all the risk assessments and you know, well, if I do this, then this is going to happen. And her whole thing is like you actually don't like we're terrible prediction animals. We actually don't know what's going to happen and you're better off like trusting this and this is a big piece in your work like this integration of mind and body is so much in our culture about really turning this off so that we can hear this more and and learn how to trust it and value it equally I suppose. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think it is for me it's like it's not turning it off necessarily, but knowing how to use it more sharply, use it more intelligently. >> And I think um we don't listen to our body and we don't know how to interpret those signals. And then often what we do is we we react. We don't respond, right? Like to Ellen Langanger's point, like we have a very strong negativity bias. So if we if we think things, it's usually the worst. Like we're always predicting the worst possible outcome. So if we just leave it up to the mind then it's just we're just a fear fear based animals. >> Uh but for me it's more like listening to the cues. It's being able to be with any discomfort which I know you're very familiar with as an endurance athlete like be in the mud per se and not be overcome by that you and then use the mind to know that okay we this is an impermanent experience. I've done this before. I've trained for this. I can go beyond. So I think it's it's more what I'm advocating for is this balanced relationality between the mind and the body. >> You mentioned earlier that your tradition of mindfulness uh coming from Sri Lanka is rooted in religion. We're in a secular culture. I'm curious around your thoughts on the explosion of the wellness movement uh the explosion of uh mindfulness centers and programs and meditation apps and run clubs. To my mind, these are all things to celebrate. People are caring about these things in a way that, you know, historically we haven't. And that's a good thing. But it's also uh a replacement for religion on some level. It's a it's a secular religion this wellness and it's become sort of a choose your own adventure like I'll take this from this and this from this when it suits me. >> How do you think about that in terms of your teaching and trying to orient people around these principles? >> Yeah, such a great question. I mean for the longest time I've been teaching for around 20 years. You know, when I first started teaching, everyone thought I was really weird and like, "Oh, it's that that's that meditation guy." They said, "In Australia, my parents had a heart attack because I left my marketing job to to be a meditation teacher." And so, it would be this thing that I wouldn't tell people. I'm like, "Oh, I I teach." [laughter] Um, but I think what's happening now, sorry, what I've learned over those years is that I've had to alter my language in order to make it accessible. Um you know in previous organizations that I've started like we weren't able to use the word spirituality because we thought that had connotations and then people would freak out and then you know no one would come and so it was very much around performance optimization uh protocols like that was the language that we used to use but you know in the last few years I started to grow in internal discontent with the industry that I was in um because I was seeing the industry itself grow $6.8 8 trillion is, I think, what the wellness industry is valued at right now. Um, and yet loneliness is continuing to rise. Mental health rates are continuing to to get worse. Um, and I feel like we're at this moment in time where there's like a real crisis of consciousness. Yeah, like what is real, like what is true, what is ethical and moral and and all of those things combined with the rise of AI, the fact that algorithms kind of run our life right now, wars ravaging us, there's almost this perfect storm for something like religion to come back, right? And there's a a good and a bad side to this. I think over the last 40 years, religion has been declining. Um and interestingly enough, as religion declines, more people are identifying as spiritual but not religious. Um interestingly, in the last six or seven years, that number has started to plateau. And in the last, I think 2 years, we're seeing a slight uptick in people going back to religion, which is fascinating to me. And I think it comes back to this crisis of kind of consciousness. But what we've replaced religion with, because we still want the things that religion gave us, right? We want to gather in communion. We want to look towards certain people. That's why I think podcasters are actually kind of replaced um you know pastors and stuff because people want to believe in something. People want to follow like a protocol because it gives them this sense of safety and direction similar to like the ten commandments or the eight-fold path in Buddhism. All these different things. Um and we want to feel safe around people that have a similar view to us. So that's why run clubs are kind of going crazy. Like last year in particular, um, Straa said that run clubs quadrupled just in one year. >> Um, and we're seeing this with, uh, I think it was sort of on TikTok recently, how people are going back to church to meet their boyfriend or girlfriend. >> I'm like, that's cool. Like, why not like try everything else? But people are looking for that because of this moment in time, I think. >> Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Airbnb, which I use all the time because I travel all the time. And now that I'm back after back surgery to being very focused on my fitness and my nutrition, it's even more important that where I stay be equipped with a nice kitchen to prepare my own meals and also be proximate to a really good gym, which means it's pretty much Airbnb for me all the way, including the trip to DC that I just returned from. [music] And when I was in the airport on my return, watching all the travelers going to and fro, I started wondering about their homes and how many of them were like the one I just stayed at, but just sitting there empty. Few days here, a long weekend there. Those gaps add up and are actually opportunities. 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Go to freaksofe.com and use code richoll to save 20% [music] when you order now. >> At the same time, it's the death of the monoculture. And I'm seeing this mimicked in all of these wellness subcultures. Maybe I go to this church for communion, but I go here for my breath work and I go here to do my yoga class and I have my run club and uh and then you know I go to manoj for mindfulness. One of the interesting things about you is that you you've you've consolidated like meditation, mindfulness and breath work. Like how are these things different? How do they work together? How are these of a piece with each other? and why should they be kind of practiced as a one as opposed to segmented in the way that we think about them like >> you know we we want to put things in boxes you know and separate everything just like our our social media feeds I guess. >> Yeah that's such a great question. I think you know for me what I've really tried to own in the last 18 months is that I think everything is spiritual and like I used to be really shy in saying that I'm like oh I don't want to use the word spiritual I use mindfulness instead. Um, and what I mean by spiritual is that I feel this interdependence with everyone like I I do even with all my algorithms pointing me towards this division like I'm I'm trying to as best as I can open up my field of awareness, my heart to an extent to to everything that's happening here. And so if I think of everything as being spiritual, I think there are many ways to cultivate that level of spirituality. So I don't need to just sit and meditate as a way of connecting to my body. I can dance. So dance has been a huge part of my life the last 3 four years and that's now a practice that I I lead and I teach. I think um music is universally spiritual and I think now we're seeing the power of sound and how it affects brainwave states and HIV and and all that kind of stuff. So music has the ability to connect us to something much deeper. And then there are other things like just genuine moments of connection with another person. Like they inherently feel spiritual to me because they're rare and I feel like there's no me and this other person certain times I feel like oh like I'm so in I'm so in this moment like I get, you know, like what Rich is saying cuz I've had that experience and there's this symbiotic sort of dance um in that moment that feels to me like it's a very spiritual moment. So for me it's it's all it's all that it's all a meditation basically. >> There's also this on this idea of segmentation. It's like I do my mindfulness practice or I do my meditation or I do my breath work. Uh I have my like morning routine and then I have my and then I go live my life. Whereas mindfulness really is about how you are carrying all of this awareness throughout the day. It's not something you do and stop doing and then live. In the same way your body and your mind aren't two different things. This is a integrated the idea is so that you are mindful more of the time. >> Yes. Yeah. I mean like Sharon Salsberg one of the great mindfulness teachers would often say you don't meditate to get good at meditation. You meditate to get good at life. >> And I think all these techniques they're just techniques unless they point us towards something. like I don't do breath work to get good at breath work. I don't meditate to just be a better meditator. I want to know myself deeper. I want to feel more connected in this life. And and all those are expressions that we can cultivate through these moments. So you another friend of mine once said, um yeah, I meditate for an hour every day, but then I'm a jerk for the rest of >> my the rest of my day. Like something's not happening here. So I think hopefully we're moving into a time where >> we're moving beyond just the techniques because the techniques can be packaged and sold, right? What's harder to sell is a way of looking at the world. >> Um and I think hopefully we'll get to that place. >> Yeah. Speaking of techniques, Manoj is going to take us through a practice in a moment. Uh before we do that, what is the most common misconception that people have about mindfulness or breath work or meditation that you encounter in your teaching? >> Um that it's a new experience. And I'll explain that. So um when people say to me, hey, I've tried I've tried meditation. I can't do it. And I'm like, but you already are mindful. And they're like, no, I'm not. I've never sat. I've never meditated. I'm like, "Well, do you like to cook?" And they're like, "Yeah, I love to cook." Like, "Tell me how you cook." It's like, "Well, chop up the things, blah, blah, blah." Okay. Well, as you're chopping up those things, you're using your hands, right? I'm like, "Yeah." Like, "Okay, so you're feeling the texture of the food and the produce. Do you smell the food before you serve it to someone?" They're like, "Yeah." I go, "Okay." So, your senses are engaged in this experience. And so, that's a mindful experience. Like when you run, it's the same thing, right? you're running, you're feeling all the sensorial inputs that are happening at the moment, whether it's the foot on the pavement, the breath, whether you're noticing your thoughts telling you to stop. Like all of that is mindfulness, but it's then if you want to take it into meditation, you kind of evolve that slightly. But if you don't, if you're not into meditation, then just cultivate those same qualities when you're talking to someone or you're about to go to sleep, when you're trying to do work, and then a thought pops up and you're like, "Okay, my attention is here. Can I come back to my senses and can I just be here in this moment? >> Yeah. It took me a long time to realize like there is no wrong way to do it because when you become aware that your mind is racing, you have become aware of that and you are paying attention. And the longer that I've done it, the more I have come to appreciate the value of attention. like all we have is our attention and where we decide to place it ends up dictating the trajectory of our lives and and we don't really consider that or value that in the way that I think that we should and the more that I've done this the more conscious I am of where I'm placing my attention and why. >> Yeah. I mean I'd love to hear like from all of your experience and the people you've spoken to like what's something you've learned about mindfulness and meditation that everything that I that I don't think I have and I aspire to have is available to me in the present moment because when you are present there is no lack like everything's fine >> and even if that's a very fleeting experience to be able to return to that and the more consistently I'm able to return to that like you realize like it's okay, you know, like life's life's pretty good, you know, >> but then you go on your phone, it's like, oh >> new shirt, new shirt. >> I know. I know. [laughter] Why does that guy have that? >> Yeah. >> Let's open it to questions. >> No, thank you so much for that conversation. I was wondering since both of you have an athletic background and uh you know, so much context. I was wondering what you could say about the whole obsession around peak performance and mindfulness, but also especially for you Rich, like since you you you are kind of an optimizer to maybe like touch on what what's what is beneficial about peak performance, especially now so much. >> Well, my my definition of peak performance has evolved, I guess I would say. I mean, I've I've certainly gone through many seasons of life where I had a narrow definition of peak performance in an athletic context or a professional context. Like, I know how to hone in on a goal and blot everything out and just barrel forward towards it to try to get the most out of my body in a physical context or my mind in a professional or intellectual context. Um, and I'm now in a season of life where peak performance to me means how can I be more available? How can I actually enjoy this incredible life that I've built for myself rather than walk around stamping my feet resentful and you know like caught up in the past or future tripping. These things don't come easy for me. You know, I have a certain program that's running in my mind and that creates intractable patterns of behavior that don't serve me. And I've been on this journey to like untie those knots and see what's beneath them. And meditation and mindfulness and some other practices have been critical in that. And and what I've discovered is that there's so much more to life than my very narrow vision of, you know, what it means to be not just like a quote unquote like successful person, but what does it mean to live a joyous life? You know, that's a foreign concept. And ideas like happiness have always seemed like indulgent to me or something that is fine for other people and that I want for other people but isn't necessarily important to me. And now these things are important to me. Like what is the point of all of these things that I've done and all the hard work that I've done and and the service that I've done on behalf of other people if I can't enjoy this life, if I'm not available to give and receive as much unconditional love as possible. And so for me, peak performance is really a measure of my capacity to love. And it's taken me a long time to get there. And I'm not very good at any of this. I have a lot of growth and learning uh ahead of me. Uh but that's been it's been a really kind of beautiful uh unfoldment that I'm kind of in the midst of right now. >> You should have a podcast. >> Wow. >> So >> beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I won't add anything else to that, but I think um peak performance is usually how people find things like mindfulness. Uh because it's one of those things where you're you're trying to get somewhere, right? You're trying to get to the optimal place and I think everyone gets to a point where you're like, "Oh, I'm never going to get there." >> Yeah. >> Like there's nothing more to optimize. There's nowhere else to go. But it's just like never ending hamster wheel. We're just we're chasing our tails. So I think it's a great entry point for people like us. Um but it's not I don't know maybe for me I don't think it's the destination. >> Yeah. I mean you need those entry points. You need those portals. I came into a yoga class shortly after I got sober back in like 1998 because this is where the hot girls were. And I ended up meeting my wife there. So I achieved that goal. uh and I got interested in meditation and mindfulness so that I could reduce my anxiety so that I could unleash a you know a higher tier of performance in myself and everything was very goal- driven and I needed it then and the trust in the person that you're working with is like okay let's get you in the door and then once you begin to do this you'll go on your own journey with it and if you continue along that journey at some point you'll realize that uh you know there's there's something to this idea of transcending goals altogether >> and just trying to uh you know catch these fleeting glimpses of true presence. >> Uh but until you experience those moments they're they're just ephemeral. You know it's very diff you can't explain to something to somebody that like this is something you should aspire to have more of in your life until you've experienced it yourself. >> [music] >> Not all creatine is created equal, which is why I'm here reminding you once again why I trust Momentous and why I take their creatine [music] specifically. They already made one of the best on the market. And instead of leaving it there, they went further and built this signature spec creatine. It's one of the only creatines manufactured in a pharmaceutical facility with reverse osmosis purification. and then run through a six-stage testing process across [music] four independent agencies. Four independent agencies. And that has resulted in this a creatine with 10 times fewer impurities, far tighter limits on heavy metals, even screening for POS and microplastics. [music] Almost nobody in the industry tests this deep. 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I love the outdoors, but I'll admit, ever since I started driving my Rivian, I find myself making even more time to just hop in and take it to places where I can live real experiences. I was recently able to drive an R2 with R.J. GRE, the founder and CEO of Rivian, and we talked about how this is no accident. How how does that how does that idea of like how are we creating this, you know, completely seamless connection with the outdoors through a [music] car that, you know, by definition sort of has to seal you off from the outdoors? Like, and how do the design decisions inform, [music] you know, that perspective? If you're in this car, you should feel like if you want to go somewhere and explore a hike or stay out a little later, it's there. It's just again a little nudge to say it's okay to explore. >> Yeah. >> Seek out the unknown. The front trunk has a drain plug in it. In the rear, the glass dropping in this car is a [music] really nice feature cuz it allows you to throw a surfboard in the back or you can easily put your gear in the back. So, it's just all these little things that are, you know, that yes, they're features and they're on their own. Maybe not the whole story, but you put them all together as a meal. It should feel like a product that's just built for someone that wants to go live, you know, a full adventurous life. >> To watch the rest of our conversation and learn all about the R2 and the places it can take you, go to stories.rian.com/rich roll. >> Thanks, Manoj and Rich. This has been great. I was really curious about what you're talking about with the interosception piece and the bridge between performance and mindfulness because I see two different camps from a performance-based lens there can be the squashing of that interosception because the show must go on and especially from a younger age if you learn that you need to suppress these parts in order to perform and do what you need to do under that pressure that's one thing and then the other end with the mindfulness and even if you're coming at it from looking at symptoms as messengers and trusting yourself whether that's anxiety, depression, pain. I feel like interosception in the felt sense is a very critical way to to feel into things to actually regulate and to tune into where you're at to heal especially from a trauma- based approach. And so I'm curious between those two, the performance and the mindfulness that intersection with interosception and how maybe if you're an athlete learning to feel again and to trust yourself in that way when maybe years there was all about suppression and numbing and kind of pushing through. Yeah, it's such a great great question and we kind of touched on it before, but you know the funny thing is all my years the number one profession the people that I see are dancers um ex dancers, people that have had dance careers because you know they've had to work with their bodies for so long and then you know when they quit or they retire then it's a different relationship to their bodies they're trying to develop. And so I think from a performance lens, you definitely have to have a quality of interception, but then have the mindset to be able to choose how you respond in that moment. Um, so for example, I work with an MBA team and with the MBA team, it was like, okay, notice when your heart rate is starting to to go really quickly. So have that interceptive awareness of what's happening and then apply a breathing technique that can bring it down. All right. All right. So then, okay, a similar breath actually to what we practice. Okay, so my heart is going quickly before I take this free throw. Let me take a few moments to to regulate. Um, sometimes we have to have that awareness and be like, okay, I just have to take the shot anyway, right? We we don't have the ability to regulate in that moment, but that's really what peak performance teams at some of these large organizations really do. They help people develop this awareness and then find um methodologies to be able to to meet them. And I think from a trauma lens, it's slightly different. I think it's you can't even almost compare the two um when you're working with trauma because a lot of the literature, the recent literature around trauma is being able to really meet trauma and actually to let it arise and titrate between what we feel and what we don't feel. And so it's almost a completely different thing, but I think somewhat related. >> Yeah. Ultimately, the place you want to get to is not having to suppress anything. Being able to uh, you know, have an awareness of those past experiences, uh, but to maintain your equinimity because you've healed it or you've made peace with it or you've changed your story about it, right? Like, >> so you're not like, I have to push this down so I can be really good over here. like you're just playing a shell game with a kind of a a short fuse because you know that that stuff's going to come up and show its face in a not so good way otherwise. >> I mean I've never run a marathon. I've never run more than 3ks but I'm curious um you know when when you run and you get those stories and those internal cues around like stopping and like what how do you deal with that? Do you just keep going or do you just >> I mean the the the easy answer to that is that you just break it down into the shortest like okay I just need to get to the next lamp post or whatever which is a shorthand for saying the more present you are in your experience then the less you have to worry about you're not worried about like I have this far to go like okay I can handle the pain in this moment now it's a new moment I can handle it now and I can handle it in this moment as well >> and that's how you do anything like you know you don't change your life make any change uh short of the tiny little things these little adjustments that you're constantly making and I think we think of change and transformation or I want to change my life as these broad strokes and you know like bold proclamations but the real arithmetic is in these tiny little adjustments that are micro and and and are being performed anonymously and they're not sexy or romantic or or even all that noteworthy. >> Yeah. And that's all about being present and being aware of like what's happening to you in the moment. >> What is the next thing that you're going to do? >> It's not about what you're going to do when you wake up tomorrow. It's like what are you doing right now? Where is your attention? >> What is your behavior? How can you show up better in this moment? How can I be more present for this experience? How can I not be caught up in like am I like is this working? Are they happy? But just like knowing like, oh, the value of whatever is happening here is truly a function of how present I'm able to be with you right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Mhm. >> For each of you, whether you're training for a marathon or just maintaining your regular mindfulness practice, when or if you reach a point where you no longer get that reward or value or output from that action, but it's something you want to maintain and kind of need to push forward with. How do each of you approach getting back to a point where you get the reward or get the feeling that brought you or to that practice in the first place or is the reason why you um maintained it. >> Meditating is not fun first of all like no one meditates because they enjoy it. Like I don't meditate because I enjoy it. What I enjoy is like how I change as a person, how I can be more present in my life to the people that I love and care about. Ultimately, that's for me the reward. Um, and even now, like 22, 23 years of practicing later, I still don't want to meditate when I wake up in the morning. It's like a it's like a struggle. I'm like, ah, maybe I just want to see what's on Instagram just today. Just today. And then, um, yeah, that me a little. Oh, sorry. Can I swear? >> I guess so. >> Um, yeah. So, I'm I'm kind of I see it as like maintenance and health like brushing my teeth. That's how I reconcile it in my mind. I don't wake up and debate with myself. I'm if I'm going to brush my teeth, I just know everyone will appreciate it a lot more. And so, the same way I think of meditation as being one of those things where the world will appreciate this a lot more um even if it sucks. I wish I could say it's a non-negotiable. I negotiate with it [laughter] far too often. >> Totally. >> I'm going to double down on the spiritual part and um ask you, can you really know your true self absent a spiritual practice? What have you learned about that through your journey? >> Yeah, I love this. I can talk for hours about this. Um, no, I mean, I think the self is constantly evolving, right? Like diversion. I think this is where in my education I've started to really understand and learn and embrace the fact that who I am is constantly evolving. And so I'm super curious about that version of me always. And so it's never like I've discovered who I am. It's like right now this is who I am. Um I'm showing compassion to the parts of me that I don't like or don't love. Um, I'm really embracing these things that are happening and I'm not running away from life. I think that's really an important part of my spiritual practice is not running away from it and meeting each moment just as it is and not really how I want it to be because for a lot of my life, my suffering came from things just not going the way I wanted it to go. Um, and so then I tried to change myself in order to meet those things versus just being able to to meet it just how it is. and and find um curiosity and openness and and compassion for those parts. And I think that deepens directly in correlation to how I practice. And so like right now I'm about to have a baby, not me, my wife. And so I was like, "Oh, I how how do I meditate?" And that's giving me a lot of anxiety right now. And maybe you can give me some pointers >> on that actually. Uh but no, it's it's just continuously being curious about this version of me and and that version of me meeting how I want to live ethically and morally. I think that's I'm learning over time. That is almost as important as my meditation practice. >> Thank you both so much. This has been great and thank you for the breath work. Um, Rich, I followed you for a while and like it seems like you started off with more ultras and endurance and as you've aged, I mean, you pivot when you need to or feel it seems and you've like from hearing journaling to meditation and still doing swim runs and everything. Um, it just seems like there's always another place to move and I feel so many people get stuck in I'm going to do a marathon and I'm going to do a marathon and a marathon and marathon, but like you've opened my eyes to so much more and the guests you've had on have done so many amazing things and it's just so inspiring to see that there's so much more out there. So, thank you. Um, and as you age, um, I love that you still bring more to the table and there's so much like every year. So, um, thank you for showing that longevity is like there and open and my parents are both Iron Mans and I'm like, "Oh jeez, I have to keep up with them." But like I follow you and there's always something else to do. So um is there something that you think is most helpful or is it like mindset where you don't close off a door or you just open other doors that is most helpful um when you keep going or is it your support system? Um I just find that you you seem to have the key and I know you always like it seems like you bring it back like no it's not me but you have a key to something that helps others. So thank you. Well, thank you for the kind words. Uh, I promise you I don't have the key. I definitely don't have the skeleton key, but I think the best way to answer that question is related to the previous question. Uh, and it has to do with knowing thyself. Like I got into endurance sports not because uh I wanted to stand on a podium or distinguish myself. Like I used it as a spiritual journey to better understand myself. I was very confused about my life and that capaciousness like that time alone on the trail like I used to confuse it with meditation. I think there it's now it's sort of an active meditation but that quiet and that connection with my body I desperately needed to kind of sort out like who who am I and what you know who what do I want to be and what do I want to what's important to me like I was asking myself questions I'd never asked myself before and it just so happened that endurance was like a vehicle for me to go on that exploration uh and then when I kind of welded that with my like very goaloriented intellectual mind. I was able to do some interesting things that other people seemed interested in. But that was the real goal there. It was a a journey to know myself better. And what I've discovered having gone through that experience and the other various experiences that I've that I've that I've weathered in my life is that in the Buddhist context to know thyself is to alleviate suffering. It's like what is causing our suffering? It's our attachment to our identity. He's like the notion of self is really just an illusion. It's a construct. It's a story we tell ourselves and other people about who we are that makes us feel grounded and certain in a universe of uncertainty. Otherwise, we would, you know, spin off our access and we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves like we wouldn't be able to operate. So there's an evolutionary rationale for it, but fundamentally it's an illusion. And being aware that the self or who you are or how you define your identity is nothing more than a story. And it's a story over which you hold agency, it's a story you can rewrite at your own convenience. And the more you can detach from that attachment from who you are. Well, I'm this person, you know, like I have uh silver medallion status in my Delta, you know, it's like all these things that we do to make us feel comfortable uh and like we belong like we want to belong to the village. We don't want to be outcasts. Like all of these things have, you know, important functionality in our lives, but they also serve to create a lot of suffering. And if you can detach a little bit and realize like this story is just a story I'm tell like I'm going to go tell this story. You're liberated from the constraints of your identity that's holding you hostage. And it allows you to grow and explore and be curious about who else you could be without feeling the burden of like well that's a that threatens like this notion of who I am. And that's allowed me to kind of walk a little bit more lightly and say, "Well, you know, all right, well, I just I had spinal fusion surgery. Like, I don't know if I'm ever going to be an endurance athlete anymore. Oh my god, like who am I going to be if I'm not an athlete?" Like, well, God, the universe, my higher power, clearly. Uh, they're like, "Dude, you need to stop. Like, you like I've been trying to tell you, you need to be more still. You can't sit still with yourself for a minute. You're always running away from your emotional discomfort. So, I'm going to break your back and force you to lay down. And instead of begrudging that or being resentful like, "Oh my god, like I'm not I can't blah blah blah." Like, what an brilliant, beautiful opportunity of discovery. Like, what if I leaned into this and didn't treat it like a burden or a setback, but rather this amazing gift? How many people get to hit pause on their life and just stop and say, "What happens when I just am here and I can't run away? What can I learn about myself? And by leaning into these new opportunities and not considering them as threats, it doesn't matter whether I ever do anything in the endurance context again. It doesn't matter whether I decide tomorrow I'm not going to be a podcaster. I think that people get caught up in these identity silos. And what I see time and time again, and I see this in Iron Man and in marathons, like people change their life. They discover they run their first marathon or they do an Iron Man and it's it's like the lights go on. They have an epiphany and they are forever transformed in a very good way as a result of these experiences. They become evangelists. Now everybody has to do an Iron Man because look at like what it did for me. Isn't this amazing? But ultimately they end up stuck and they just okay like I'm just I got to do more iron mans. I got to run more marathons. I and and and they're shortcircuiting their growth like their growth plateaus there and they don't realize like oh I've learned 95% of what I'm going to learn through this experience and there's a universe of other experiences available to me if I am willing to let go of this and grab on to this and understanding that change and transformation isn't a one-time deal like oh I changed and now I'm changed. It's a relationship that we're in. And it's a lifelong relationship and embracing that like what's the next change I need to make and you know it never gets easier and change and transformation and you know taking contrary action and getting out of your comfort zone like these are always uncomfortable you know but by moving towards that rather than recoiling from it and and kind of siloing ourselves in our like identity like I do this and this is who I am and I vote for this person um has been very liberating for me and so I spent a lot of I'm thinking about that and I think that is why I've been able to just be like okay I'm doing this and now I'm doing this and you know when I started doing this I was really interested in this and now I really don't care about that and I'm talking to men and I want to know about the nature of consciousness and like what is reality like I that's much more interesting than uh you know like what do you eat for dinner? >> Thank you. Thank you very much for for the conversation guys and I wanted to say thank you especially to Rich whose book and podcast has been a source of inspiration for me along the time. I came to the US in 2020 to the city. I didn't have a job. My wife was working and I was running like crazy. And after reading your book and you know getting into your uh podcast, I ended up running a few ultras. So it really helped me uh and it ignited on me a journey that it was as you were saying it was self-discovering myself and the potential of not only my body but also my mind. But now I'm in a situation in which I mean it may happen to many people who get into endurance sports. I got two babies. [laughter] So I'm finding it challenging right now to continue you know meditating and and finding those specific you know or those spaces in during my day to meditate to continue pushing myself into you know endurance sports. So life changes when you have kids. I have two toddlers and it has definitely I don't know challenged my life and my my endurance experience a lot. Uh so I was wondering if you guys have a few tips for new dads >> that would like to continue finding those spaces and continue >> This is good timing for you. >> I'm listening. I'm I'm taking notes. >> Oh, you are. I'm no parenting authority. Trust me, uh, in my experience, your children become your greatest teachers. Uh, and the more that you, uh, are in present awareness of that, I the more beautiful the parenting experience is. Uh, and they are mirrors for all of your character defects and foibless and frailties. Uh, and so you can't get away with anything. you know, when you when you have children, and that's beautiful and also challenging. Uh, but God or the universe doesn't give you what you're not prepared for. And I wouldn't trade being a parent for anything. You know, it's just been the most beautiful experience I could possibly imagine that continues to give and continues to be challenging. So embrace it rather than look at oh well when I'm a parent and now I'm not going to be able to do this thing or it's going to really compromise this uh the world is abundant and uh the experience of being a parent uh will just bring more abundance into your life. And so don't look at it as an encroachment on your like favorite hobbies or whatever. Uh look at it as this gift of abundance that's going to um take you on a journey you can't possibly imagine. Um, I think that's all the time we have. I think I want to end it by just saying uh thank you to Rivian and the Rivian House for hosting this. I can think of no other brand that is uh more uh on brand for the conversation that we just had because Rivian's all about connecting us to nature and connecting human beings to each other by removing the obstacles that get in the way of adventure and living life to the fullest. And the more I get steeped in mindfulness and meditation, I realize that's what it's about. like life is this journey and this adventure and I just want to experience it to the fullest and the things that Manoj teaches and preaches are really the path towards that. So if Manoj is new to you or these ideas that he's talking about um this is your first touch point for them uh I implore you to do a deep dive into his world and uh check out his offering. So, you have open that the app or like is that anymore or where should people learn more about you? Is that over with? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's all. But yeah, you should definitely look them up. They're great. Um >> I don't know. I'm really bad at this part of the the conversation, but I'm launching an editorial platform. It's called Gentle Noise. It's for people that are curious about spirituality and contemporary culture. So, if that's you, uh, it's a non-dogmatic sort of editorial podcast, all that sort of stuff. So, tune into that. >> Um, should we have you take us through a practice? >> Sure. >> There's that cool. >> Would you like to practice? >> So, um, a really important practice, I think, is our ability to, and people get really hung up on this when we talk about HRV, like heart rate variability, and people turn it into this big thing that I don't think is really all that important to be completely honest with you. But there is a breathing technique that you can do 5 minutes a day that a I found personally to also help with sleep. So if you struggle with sleep um it'll give you really good sleep scores on on ordering talking about optimization. Um but it's also a really great practice that helps us predict our uh ability to really weather stress right over the course of our life. And it's sometimes used to predict our general health. So really simple practice. is called coherent breathing. Uh you breathe in for five, you breathe out for five. I like to add a little pause in between. Just I feel like it's nice. I don't know. Um so maybe we'll do a few rounds of that. Yeah. And so for for this with functional breath work, which this technique is, you should generally use your nose to breathe. Um when you're doing other kinds of breath work, you know, you can use your mouth, but with functional breath work practice, use your nose. >> Why is that? It's generally healthier. It's a better way to breathe. It filters out, especially when you're breathing in a lot of smoke from Canada. Thank you, Canada. Um, it helps filter out some of that stuff, but also there's other flow on benefits like if you breathe through your mouth a lot, it can make you more tired. It tends to be a lot more um depleting as well over time. And there's some emerging research around how it changes face shape. So, if you care about >> for the looks maxers out there, >> yeah, for the looks maxers out there. [laughter] Um, so really simple technique. I'll guide you through it. So, first just relax into whatever position you're in. Yeah, just shake your body. Actually, do that. That feels good. Everyone been sitting down listening to us for a little while. Just shake. Actually, shake your hands too. Yeah. No one's watching you. They're all watching me and Rich. Just shake. Good. And then just shake your shoulders. Maybe shake your legs. Maybe turn the outer edges of your mouth up a little bit. It's actually very beneficial to your to your Yeah. jaw. Yeah. Do one of those. We get it. Do it again. Yeah. Good. I love that. And then just um just relax your body. And if you feel comfortable doing so, you can close your eyes. If not, just allow them to soften gently. And I want you to begin by taking a slow, deep breath in through your nose. And then as you open your mouth, as an exhale, let something go, [sighs] whatever that is. And then through your nose, please breathe in for 5 4 3 2 1. Exhale. 5 4 3 2 1 Pause. Breathing in. 4 3 2 1 Breathing out. 4 3 2 1. In. 4 3 2 1. Out. 4 3 2 1 In. Out. In. Out. One more. Just like that. and out. And then keeping your eyes closed, I want you to bring to mind someone in your life that you're grateful for. Visualize that person as if they are here with you. Now, as you visualize that person, I want you to reflect on why you're grateful for them. What have they shown you? What have they taught you? And then take a moment and reflect on something about your life that you're grateful for. Maybe the safety of your home. the clean water that you drink or what you do in the world. What's something that makes your life easier, better? And then finally, please bring to mind something about yourself that you're grateful for. What have you overcome? What have you given? [clears throat] This part is often the hardest part. So take this one brief moment and just reflect. What am I grateful for about myself and take a big deep breath in [clears throat] and then open your mouth. Let something go. Whenever you're ready, you can very slowly bring your attention back and [snorts] whenever you're ready, you can open your eyes. Is there anyone who doesn't feel better? Right on. Awesome, man. Thank you so much. Thanks, Rivian. [music] Thanks all of you for showing up today. I appreciate you. >> Thank you. [applause]