“85 Unofficial Sharia Courts” - Piers Morgan On UK Migrant Crisis & Tommy Robinson | PBD Podcast 682

You guys have Sadik Khan. I think he's the first three-term mayor in London ever, a Muslim guy himself. >> What happened to London after he came in that New Yorkers can expect? >> This is a seismic moment for New York. Here you've got a guy out there not just espousing a socialist philosophy, but it's seemingly utterly determined to try and deliver it. >> Would you be okay with a Muslim [music] uh prime minister of uh UK? >> Listen, I don't want to radicalize Muslim running the country. I don't want to radicalize anything. You get Christian extremists in America who committed a Paul atrocity. >> You're comparing the two. What do you think about what Tommy has shown when he's going in the streets having 100,000 people showing up? >> There is a rising concern which Robinson has tapped into. We're losing our identity as a country. Everybody feels that this is getting unsustainable. >> What's your position with who Epstein [music] was? >> I think he was a predatory pedophile. We don't know the full story yet about Andrew, but we may well find out. I think he's been lying. >> Where is your position with everything that's going on within the Republican influencer party? >> I've never met or interviewed Fuentes. The stuff he said on the record is so appalling in many cases. You have to go after him about >> you had Alex Jones on when he came in with the whole uh >> well, he had he had a petition to deport me. And this idea that he didn't know that he was spewing lies is [ __ ] Of course, he knew. Did you ever [music] think you were made again? I could taste sweet. [music] >> What's your point? >> The future looks bright. >> My handshake is better than anything I ever signed right here. [music] >> You are a 101. I don't think I've ever said this before. >> We're finally doing this. >> I can't believe it. I'm here. >> Yeah. It's normally through the Zoom and you're out there doing your thing, but it's great to sit down together. >> Thank you for having me. But also the scale of your empire here is quite something. >> Well, thank you. Yeah. Most people when they come, they're thinking, you know, and then they see what's going on. It's exciting. >> Very impressive. >> Yes. And I know you and Vinnie, you guys have a very unique bond together. He loves being on the show. >> I love him coming on. Vinnie has an energy unlike anybody I I think I've ever met in my life. And what I love is he just gives it back to everyone that gives it to him. There's no quarter given. But also, he's he's an unpredictable guy. You can't box him in in the way that people like to. They try and box him in as you're this and you're that. And he'll often say, "Actually, I don't think that. I don't think he's an interesting character." >> Yeah. Made for TV, period. Made for every time I see these thumbnails and Vinnie's pictures like that or he's so animated, so you can always pick something. [laughter] >> But Pierce, I'm trying to see what angle to take with you. So, there there's a couple I want to talk to you about, you know, your relationship with the president. And I want to talk to you about some of the stuff with >> Israel that you've hosted. So I think you hosted the first big one with Bassam Yoseph came on that one fiery 30 something million views >> and then there was a back and forth. >> Uh and then but also with what's going on with London. So right now in US >> Mandani just became >> the mayor of New York City, financial capital of the world. Prior to that, the financial capital of the world was London, right? >> So you guys had a 400 years, we had a 400 years. And you know when when Americans sometimes look at Europe and they look at EU, they're like, "Wow, look, London's lost. They've lost their identity. What's look what's going on to them?" And we had Dominic Tarjinski who was here from Poland. He said, "We'll never do what London is doing. We'll never do what EU is doing." What can New Yorkers, if you can give them advice to what look for? >> You guys have Sadi Khan, I think he's the first three term mayor in London ever, right? Muslim guy himself. What happened to London after he came in that New Yorkers can expect? >> It's interesting because I I think there's been a slight mischaracterization of the comparison between Malani and Sadi Khan. They're both Muslims, but Sadi Khan is very much a establishment labor figure in the UK. He's not a progressive woke left guy on many issues. Mamani is full-on self-aclaimed socialist. That's not Sadi Khan. Um Sadi Khan the parallel I said with Mandani he keeps winning elections because the opponents they put up against him have been universally useless. >> This is Sadi. >> Yeah. So he's had a very easy run and to be fair to him he's won re-election twice. M Dani was up against Cuomo who I always felt was damaged goods. I felt if you're going to put a moderate up against him who actually was new and fresh and interesting he probably could have done better or he she could have done better. So Mandani had a bit of a clean run against a damaged guy I felt. Um, but there's no doubt this is a seismic moment for New York. I mean, it's the biggest city in America. It's one of the great capital cities of the world. It's in many ways the heart of capitalism itself. And here you've got a guy out there not just espousing a socialist philosophy, but it's seemingly utterly determined to try and deliver it. Now, I would say, look, uh, Mr. M darn this is all very well offering everybody everything for free but there's a reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere in the world for any sustained period of time at some point somebody has to pay for this so who's going to pay for all this and the answer will be what's happened with the Labor government in the UK the taxes aren't set by Sadik has a tiny bit of power over local taxation but the Labor government came in with a thumping majority just over a year ago uh massive one of the biggest majorities of modern times a real repudiation of years of very poor rule by the Conservative Party under a series of prime ministers and they promised all sorts of things. You know, prosperity is coming, hope is coming, all these things. And it's been a complete disaster and they're now about to unleash a budget in about 3 weeks time, which they're already setting the stall by is going to be a total U-turn on all their pledges in the election campaign. They said they wouldn't raise income tax. They're going to said they wouldn't do this, wouldn't do that. They're going to do it all because they've realized they can't pay for all the promises they made. And I think this is what's going to happen in New York. >> How ugly do you think it's going to be in New York? >> Well, it's going to get very interesting politically, I think, because Mani is clearly the most charismatic figure the Democrats have had really for a long time since Obama. You could argue >> even more charismatic than Obama. If you >> maybe he's more engaging actually. I think he's more engaging. And look, he's an Arsenal fan like me, a big Arsenal fan. So, we have that in common. And it's not that I object to his aspirations. It's just that of often with socialists there's a complete disconnect between the aspiration and the ability to deliver. Now you know if we come back in two years time let's be clear if Mandani within two years manages to deliver on his socialist agenda in a way that is deemed to be successful and popular massive transformative moment for the Democrats leading into the next general election. I don't think he can. I think the opposite will happen. I think he'll either, like a lot of these guys, once they get power, pivot more to the center ground or he will try and force through these socialist policies, it won't work and he will become the stick to beat the Democrats with leading into the next general election. So, there's massively high stakes here because the Democrats have nobody else who has any real charisma. Nobody. Um, and in fact, the most charismatic people on the left in America right now, you could argue, are Manny, AOC, and Bernie Sanders. So, you got a bunch of socialists dominating the news cycle for them. >> Yeah. And and and what do you do with that, right, when you're seeing that part taking place? Because, you know, on the other side, Nancy Pelosi stepping down, Newsome, you hear that voice coming up. And you're you're an interesting place because you do business in New York. You have a property, I believe, in LA. You you're in London. You're going back and forth. So you kind of are able to, you know, compare all those different climates. But going back to UK, London, >> so uh uh we see the videos, we see Tommy Robinson. I have Tommy Robinson on I know you guys have had your Yeah. >> set of back and forth and I've followed it over the years of what's happened, but >> what do you think about what Tommy says? Not his background, not any of the criminal stuff, not any of that stuff that maybe you guys have issues with. I don't I'm not trying to do the personal stuff. What do you think about what Tommy is showing when he's going in the streets having 100,000 people showing up? A lot of people in London finally are coming out saying the Overton window of immigration now even people in London. The story came out last week. They're even more aggressively pro- anti-immigration than America. They're like, "We don't want any more of this." For you, somebody who is from there, what have you noticed the changes >> in London since Muslims started entering decades ago? Well, I think it's the problem has been massively exaggerated. However, there is a rising problem. That's how I would categorize it myself. Tommy Robinson resonates with people because of two things, I think. One, he was absolutely right about the grooming gang scandal in the north of England. It was a horrendous scandal involving almost exclusively British Pakistani men abusing young white English girls. That was the scandal and it was going on for years. It was horrific. These girls were being appallingly abused by a particular section of the community. But nobody dared say what that community was because they were trapped in woke ideology that you can't name a criminal if it doesn't suit the woke agenda. And so Tommy Robinson was one of those people that early on began calling this out and he was right to do so and he deserves credit for doing it. Mainstream media weren't completely oblivious. One guy on the Times actually exposed it originally and kept banging that drum. But many people in the establishment in the UK conspired to cover it up. They didn't want this. They thought it would be too much of a powder cake to say what actually happened, which is this was British Pakistani men abusing white English girls. That was it. And they should have been clear with what was going on. So Tommy Robinson deserves credit for that. Let's not get into his background. I have my issues about it. I have my issues about some of the sanitization of who he is when he comes on American shows because he tends to, I think, be very disingenuous. But park all that, why is he also gathering momentum now with his marches which used to be, you know, really a bunch of thugs running around, you know, attacking police and so on, but it's morphed into a much bigger number of people. Many of them are completely peaceful. many of them share his concerns about immigration failures in terms of policy failures in the country for decades now. And again on that on that specific he's right. And the reason he's right is you can go back to really it's interesting that that I think the way this has played out. Tony Blair in the early 2000s opened the floodgates on immigration but to Eastern Europe. And so we suddenly had a massive influx of people from Eastern Europe into the UK. And this was deemed to be a good thing. And then it became a thing that was slightly out of control. And then generally immigration seemed to spiral out of control, both legal and illegal. We started getting this problem on the boats coming over from France. It's now up to 50 60,000 people a year are coming in illegally on these small boats. No one appears to have any idea how to stop this happening. But more, I think more damagingly, two years ago, we had a net migration in the UK of legal migration of nearly a million people. Now, to put it in context, we only have just under 70 million people in the UK. You bring in a million people a year legally and add them to the already creaking infrastructure. You know, we have the much vaunted national health system. The NHS was designed in the 50s for a population of 50 million. We now have a population of nearly 70 million. So comparative to America, we're a fifth of the size. But in comparison to where we were in the 50s, we are massively bigger population. The strain on all of our infrastructure, all our public services has been getting worse and worse and worse in direct correlation to the size of our population. And that is what's been fueling a lot of the anger. A lot of people add the pandemic, add the cost of living crisis. So add years of really tough times for a lot of people, particularly workingclass people in Britain. And they see a lot of people coming in either illegally or with the blessing of the state with many dependents. And they see with the illegal uh migrants coming over on the southern border, they get put in three, fourstar hotels. They get treated way better than the than the way that many people are living their lives who are in the country illegally already and it causes a lot of resentment. Then you add inevitably when you get these kind of numbers coming in that you're going to get migrants committing uh crimes and when they do this becomes a hugely inflammatory thing. So again on that aspect of it all Robinson is correct. >> So if you look at this number this is estimated Muslim population in UK by percentage from 83 till today. I'm sure you've seen this half a million in 83 1%. >> And then it cracked 1 million in 97 14 years later and then 2 million and then 4 million and then 4.5 some say 5 million today >> 6 7% of the population >> you you have flirted with the concept of wanting to run for prime minister. I heard you know whether you're joking or you're being serious you [snorts] know if there is a crazy personality that could pull it off you probably have the personality to pull it off. But let's just say you do say, you know what, >> I'm gonna get in there and I'm being hired as a, you know, true, you know, strategic or I'm gonna run for this. >> Do you think this growth, the way it's going right now, getting to 10, 20, 30%. Do you think it is a good idea to keep allowing people to come in to combine the Islam way of thinking, what their ideas are and coexist with the western ideology? >> Well, I think there's certainly there are issues which are serious um to be considered. For example, it's been reported there are as many as potentially 85 unofficial Sharia courts in the UK now, which are not operating under UK law. They're operating in their own law for their own communities. That clearly is not a good thing in a country like the UK. Uh I I would say look, we have a very high Muslim population now comparative percentage-wise to the United States. In fact, I think they're not far off in terms of total numbers to the whole of of America. So we have a lot of Muslims who live in in the UK. We've always been a very multicultural, very tolerant place. That's why people want to come and live there. A bit like America. Uh I would say the vast majority, I've said this before and I say it again, the vast majority of Muslims living in the UK have assimilated perfectly well and lived perfectly peaceful and uh lives which contribute to society. Uh it the problem is I think coming with the sheer volume of people coming in and the sheer volume coming in illegally as well where as you've had in the United States people have actually no idea who these people really are how radicalized they may be what their plans may be when they get to United Kingdom and then you see the quite disturbing spectacle of protests say in London uh during the Israel Hamas war where people are brazenly supporting ing Hamas in these protests and you know Hamas is a prescribed terror group in the United Kingdom that should be not happening. Um so there is a rising concern which Robinson has tapped into and some would say his critics would say he's fueled it for his own devices but he's tapped into a genuine concern and the worrying thing for the government should be that as their popularity plunges the popularity of people like Robinson and like the reform party under Nigel Farage although those two don't get on um you're seeing a rising sentiment in the UK that we're losing our identity as a country and What should we do about that? Whilst preserving the UK's historic position of being a welcoming, tolerant country, proudly multicultural. How do you juggle that with the sheer volume of people coming in and the impact that's having on local communities? And how do you stop communities developing within communities? In other words, how do you stop the fragmentation of our society where you have, you know, little separate worlds developing in all major cities and towns? These are genuine concerns and to for people the old days used to be shut down these these uh conversations by people saying well you're racist that we're long past that stage. People now openly talk about this in UK on political shows and so on. Um and you're no longer just labeled a racist if you express concern about immigration. Everybody feels that this is getting unsustainable. So the question is what do we do about it? >> So you have how many kids? You have four kids. Okay. >> So four kids but they're grown, right? They're they're grown. Yeah. 32 down to 13. >> Okay. Oh, so you do have a 13-y old. >> 13-y old. Yeah. >> Okay. And then what's the oldest after 13? >> 32. >> Okay. >> Well, my youngest boy is 24 then 28. 24. So 13. If if you if you were to start all over again, okay, and you're 25 today >> and you know you're capable, meaning you know you're shine on camera. You know, you're you're very comfortable being under the fire. That's your comfort zone. Doesn't you know you're going to go make money no matter where you go here, any other country. Would you choose to raise your four kids where you're at or would you move out of would you move out of the country? I >> I would I would and I would remind people we've been through a lot more difficult times than this. I think a lot gets amplified by social media and that can be a very good thing or a very bad thing. My grandmother was 19 at the start of World War II and she was 25 when it ended and she always said to me, "I lost six of the best years of my life." She said, "However, I then went from 25 to 94 and had a brilliant 70 years after that." So imagine living through World War II. Imagine the kind of conversations you and I would have been having about that, about the impending threat of Nazi domination, of Nazis taking over the UK. You know, we face bigger challenges than this. This is a challenge that's come, in my opinion, across the whole of Europe. the sweeping migration, much of it coming from countries that have been at war, whether it's Syria, Iraq, or wherever it may be. Um, but you've had millions and millions and millions of people deposed from their homes or fleeing wartorrn situations and sweeping across the continent of Europe and wanting a better life for their family, which I which I completely understand. But it has got unsustainable. And it's not just a problem for the UK, it's a problem for Germany, for France, for many of the European countries. They're all facing the same challenges. Nobody at the moment, it seems to me has a clear idea of what we do about this other than I look at somewhere like the United States. I look at the way Donald Trump just slammed the brakes on the southern border almost instantaneously and reduce the number of people coming in from, you know, two and a half million a year to literally a couple of thousand a month, right? And you look at that and you think, well, okay, you can control borders. You just have to have the determination to do it. I also think Trump has universal support in America when he says that anyone who's here illegally in the United States who then commits a crime outside of their uh immigration status should be deported. where the flash point comes and where it's an interesting thing as to whether other countries like the UK follow the Trump philosophy on this is where you start deporting people who have been here for a number of years illegally but who have been maybe working paying taxes contributing to society bringing up kids and so on what do you do with those people I understand that they want to create an atmosphere of you you have to come in illegally illegally and if you don't then you can't stay here. I understand that. But you don't want America to lose its inherent sense of compassion and empathy either. And I think some of the images for me of ICE running into Home Depot and grabbing people who are undocumented and wanting to throw them out, living in LA, as I do a lot of the time, the fear that's engendered amongst the community in LA is not a it's not a good thing. So, I think there's a balance to be struck here. Albeit, you cannot look at Trump's overall immigration policy and not think it's been extremely effective so far. And you got to look at the hypocrisy of the left when they go after Trump as like my favorite question for my lefty friends, my liberal woke friends. And I I used to identify happily as liberal. I just find nothing in common with these people. But I say to them, how many people did Barack Obama deport in eight years as as president? They never know. For one, they could tell exactly how many Trump has, but they never know how many Obama did. And then I tell them it's three million people. Just Google it. You can Google it. So A, they don't want to know. B, when they find out, they're completely shocked. C, I said he he was known as deorter in chief in Mexico. Right. That was his nickname. That's right. Right. This guy deported more people pratta per year than any president in the history of the United States. And yet the same rules do not apply to Obama than do to people like Trump. So, you know, I think there's a lot to learn from the way Trump's gone about it, albeit [clears throat] with some caveats. >> Yeah. So, you you said something about your grandma being 19 to2 during the war. I lost six of my best years, but I lived to 94, 70 years, some of the greatest years of my life. Right. Okay. >> When you had to overcome that war, you had this one guy named Winston Churchill, right? So, just curious, you're saying, you know, Muslims that come in and they assimilate. Great. No problem. I don't have any problem. We have we have Muslims in our company that we work with and they've assimilated. They love America, right? If you ask uh uh the uh Muslim Council of Britain, it'll say that 75% of Muslims in Britain have assimilated and see themselves as Brits. >> I'm a Brit. I consider myself proud Brit as well, but 25% >> don't depending on the numbers you look at. >> How would Winston Churchill today would Winston Churchill be tolerant with the borders? Would he be like, "Yeah, it's okay. Let him come in." >> No. >> Would he handle the threat? Think about how his wiring was. This is your world. What do you think he would have done today? >> No, I think he'd have been tough. I think he'd have been very in what way? >> Well, I think he'd be very protective of our borders in a way he was very protective against the threat of Nazism to our way of life. I think that he would have understood inherently I think that actually having open borders as Ronald Reagan said, right? The best line ever was the simplest one. If you have an open border, you don't have a country. Of course, you don't. The very definition of a country is something that has a border. So the moment you allow your border to be completely open, you're just going to be a hostage to your own misfortune. And that's what we're seeing happening. You know, again, it's a it's a big problem for the continent of Europe. It's not just a problem for the UK. The difference we have is twofold. One, we're an island, the United Kingdom, and secondly, we're detached from the European Union, not just geographically, but phys but u financially and every other way now through leaving the Europe the EU through Brexit. So, you know, there's not we haven't got a lot of friends in France, for example. They don't they they don't really that bothered about helping us with the small boats crisis because why should they help us at all given the pain we inflicted on them by leaving the EU? So, there's a lot of that going on, but they've all got their own problems. I was in Paris recently and you know, you could say, I think you could be fair to say Paris is very different place when you walk around to what it was like 30 years ago. You know, I know, you know, my wife is half prison, was born and raised there. And so, you see it changing. Now, I've got no problem. You know, America is the classic example of a country where every city you go to, you'll meet myriad people from myriad different countries, myriad different backgrounds and so on. You know, this and the United States is a great example of how this can work. But you have to have control of your borders and you have to have a sensible tough immigration policy. The the irony for me is when you try and become like I am. I'm a I'm a uh exceptional alien is my status on my visa status for the United States. I always laugh. They literally call you aliens. Uh and and my my visa is pegged to my work and I'm here as an So, you know, I'm a little bit perturbed that I have to be called an alien, but the fact they call me an exceptional alien, I'll take it. Respect. >> Yeah. But the amount of paperwork and money you have to spend on getting through your visa immigration status each time I have to renew it uh is indicative of a country that does apply these rules. And the reason that people get so angry about those who circumn the rules is a lot of them have had to do the same. You if you go through the proper process to go into a country legally or to set up your home there with your family, whatever it may be, obviously you're going to really resent people who wash up on a small boat who might be criminals. You've no idea because the UK government has no idea, by the way, who's on these boats, for example. And we found in one purge that 30% one year all came from Albania, which is not a war torn country. Uh it's a country in Eastern Europe, but there's a lot of gangs. And these were gang members coming into the UK, predominantly the major cities to deal in things like drugs. So they did a deal with the Albanians and it stopped that stone debt. But now we have people coming in from other countries. So there's a >> What would Churchill have done? What do you think he would have done? >> I think he What would he have done? >> Seriously, what do you think he would have done? Just think his profile. I certainly think right now he would have put the clamps down on more people coming in exceptional circumstances. >> Would he have we have would he have sent anybody back from the 7% that came here? How would he have treated some of the criminals? How would he have treated some of the knife some of the stuff that's going on? >> So I would say he certainly wouldn't have just picked out the Muslim community. We have a lot of different communities. Like I said, the grooming gang scandal in America was very high profile, attracted a lot of heat obviously, but we have a lot of different religions, nationalities living in the UK. I don't think he would have singled out Muslims. Uh I think what he would have taken a more pragmatic view and gone we have too many people in this country now. There's too much pressure on our public services. Some people are going to have to leave. Who are those people? Well, anyone who commits a crime who's come in here to this country uh legally but commit a crime should be deported. I think most people feel that. And then you got to stop the people coming in illegally. What is the most effective way of doing that? No one's had a good plan so far. The Conservative Party boasts about their Rwanda plan, but it was so ridiculous. It was like a tiny handful of people would have ever got on those planes to Rwanda. It was never going to work in the way they kept trying to promise it would. So, what is the most effective way to do it? I actually think that if Trump was in charge, for example, he'd probably say to Emanuel MR, if you don't stop these boats leaving your shores, because it has to be done at the French end, then we're going to tariff you a,000% on your your wine and cheese coming into the UK. He would have taken a brutal move like that. Why are they not doing that right now? >> I don't know. I don't I don't know why they're not so tough on the French. You've got to do a deal with the French on this. You got to say, "Look, sorry. You're letting all these people get on these boats. Once they're at once they're at sea, there's hardly any way to stop them. And then once they wash up on our shore, they are legally allowed to remain as potential asylum seekers. >> Is it fear? Is it something you guys need from them? Is it something is it [snorts] a history of, you know, Patrick? It's tough leadership. You know, Churchill was a very flawed character in many ways. you know, he was a big smoker, big drinker, you know, he said some pretty ugly things over the years about people. Um, all of these things, but he was also brilliantly talented, an amazing writer, a painter, musician, al incredibly complex, talented, brilliant man. But when it came to our biggest ever challenge of facing the threat of Nazism, he was the one who stood up and convinced the British public we can beat these people when nobody else thought we could. And for that alone, he's my greatest ever Britain. albeit like all my great Britain and all my great favorite people flawed right but I think we need a strong probably flawed character to come forward and go right we have this problem what are we going to do about it let's have a proper open debate where people who contribute are not immediately branded racist if they think we have too many people in the country and too many people coming in both legally and illegally what are we going to do about this and stop putting people who come in illegally in very luxurious hotel accommodation which enrages local communities who are living in far lower standards of living. >> Who who are some names? Who are some names? Because remember Roger Stone was the first guy that looked at Trump and said, you hear the stories where it's like >> this guy's going to be the president one day. You can be the president one day. You can go become president one day, right? And Trump's like, nah, I'm a business guy. I'm doing what I'm doing. Who are some names that you say they would have the brass and the balls to go out there and put their foot down? >> I don't really Here's the problem. I don't really see the person. And I'll tell you why I don't think I see that person. We now have a very mediocre tier of politicians in the United Kingdom. All the smart ones who've been genuinely successful in their own lives, they don't want to poke their head into the political arena. It's become too toxic, too damaging. You tend to get absolutely fried for every pecadilla you've ever done in your entire life. Nobody who's got probably the smarts and the and has been a success themselves wants to do it. So you're left with a mediocre. It's like being in, you know, in any company and suddenly a sort of lower ranking, lower middle management team suddenly run the company. Well, there's a reason they're lower ranking middle managers in most cases. They're not as capable as the ones actually running the company. I feel like that about a political class in the UK. I just across all the parties there is a pority of people that I think have the drive and the smarts to do this. And Nigel Farage's reform party are getting a lot of traction. I think by default because the others are so useless. But even he when I listen to his economic policies, they don't make any sense, right? He's basically a bit of a one-trick pony. He's strong on immigration, albeit I'm not entirely sure he's got the answers. But on I hear him on the economy, I think you could you could be leftwing. So this is a problem. We got to get back to attracting the best of the best to want to come in to run the country. >> Could you could you see would you be okay with a Muslim uh prime minister of uh UK? >> Yeah, >> you would be okay. That wouldn't do anything. >> Absolutely. Yeah. So that's your concern isn't that at all. >> No, not at all. No. Listen, I don't want to radicalize Muslim running the country. I don't want to radicalize anything running the country. You know, there's a lot of radicalized elements of all religions, of all nationalities. I I don't like anyone who's radicalized. It's dangerous for any country to have people at the helm who are radicalized. You know, do I think we have a particular problem in the UK with radicalized Muslims? I'm not convinced by that. I think there are radicalized Muslims and clearly the Muslim population is rising exponentially fast compared to other population. So we are going to have to look at this and say well what do we do about this going forward in a way that you don't look like you're just you know picking on people because of their Muslim faith. I I uh I respect the tolerance that uh you have of what could happen to Brit long term because I think sometimes when you're in it uh and it's grad like you know the whole thing about you put a a frog and a boiling water and you boil it slowly slowly slowly slowly slowly slowly and then boom he's dead it's too late right >> I think sometime when people are in it they're like yeah well it's you know it's okay with this it's okay with that it's okay with this >> I think UK is flirting with intolerant and it'd be interesting to see who would rise up and want to do something about it. >> Well, look, I I go to a lot of Muslim countries. I've been in Saudi Arabia. I've been in uh >> To me, the biggest thing is the extremists. It's not a >> No, exactly. Here's here's my point though, but but also they have zero tolerance of people wanting to operate under their own laws when they go to those countries, for example. So the whole debate about Sharia law and so on, you know, I can understand why a lot of Brits get exercised about that because if I went to Saudi Arabia or Qatar or somewhere and decided I would ignore the country's laws and operate under my own laws while I was there, you wouldn't get away with that. >> Why would you be okay with that? Why would you be okay with that? >> Well, I wouldn't. >> No, no, but what I'm saying is so if you were okay with somebody was a Muslim to become a prime minister >> and then say they're the noble one, >> right? you know, and they're coming in, they actually love Britain, but it opens it up and an extremist like, I'm going to get in. Then they come in and they say, "Hey, Sharia law, what are you going to do about it?" >> Then what? Because you're making it a step ahead. >> Yeah. But I don't think you can you you can't tar the entire Muslim population with the brush of potential extremism in the same way that you get Christian extremists in America who've committed appalling atrocities. I don't assume that every Christian I'm a Christian. I don't assume every Christian in America is a potential extremist. You know, I just think it's there's got to be >> comparing the two. You're comparing the two. >> No, no, I'm just saying extremism is extremism. >> Yeah, isn't it? >> Isn't it? Well, it's the same, isn't it? >> It is. No, I think extremism is extremism. To me, that's not the part of it. But when you look at the percentage of who was like, for example, in America, >> if I don't care what uh part of the world you're in, when Japanese came to the World Cup, you remember the story about the Japanese when they went to the World Cup, >> what were they doing afterwards at the end of the game? They were cleaning up the arena. Mhm. >> Everybody's like, "What are they doing here? >> That's what we do in Japan." >> So, would I want a thousand Japanese neighbors? Yes. >> Would I want 10,000 Japanese neighbors? I don't care what religion they are. I don't care what god they believe in. They are their own people. They raise kids. They go and work. They They don't hate America. They don't get up there and, you know, commit terrorist. You don't hear stories like that from them. They just go and do their part, right? >> But but I would argue this back. So, I went to the Katar World Cup, for example, for a week. felt completely safe. There was no hooliganism whatsoever. >> But that's not the same as as the extremist. These are two different >> No, no, I agree. I agree. But again, I think every there's extremists everywhere on attached to all different groups. And I would say that, you know, I like the way the Middle East has been opening up in the last decade. I think it's exciting. It's dynamic. You know, I I just interviewed Cristiano Ronaldo uh in Riad at his home there. One thing he said, it just feels really safe and it feels like it's opening up in a way that's good for families and everything else. And I I think that's great. I think we should be encouraging countries like that to continue the the evolution that they're on. Um without without sort of I don't like the tinge of you're all potential extremists until you prove otherwise. >> No, because I think I think it's unfair to a whole I mean there how many Muslims are there in the in the world? 1.4 billion. You know, are we really suggesting that 1.4 billion Muslims are all potential extremists? I don't get that sense of the Muslims I know in London. I walk down my high street in London. There are Muslims running all sorts of different businesses and honestly they're not extreme. >> When we set out to create a shoe that blends comfort, function, and luxury. We had the choice [music] to make it fast. 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And stats will tell you, guess what? you you'll be able to look at that and say okay these communities if it's Armenian if it's Assyrian if it's Persian if it's this I want to know about it yeah and then from there you have to sit there and say when people come here from XYZ country they make America a great place let's get some more of them when people come here from XYZ countries they don't make the place a better place well let's do something about it as well can can you did you find it looking right now >> hey Ombberto can you guys send the the chart I think you know which one I'm talking about >> uh that breaks down exactly the SNAP benefits. Uh you will see in America, so while the government shutdown took place, >> food stamps by ethnicity, >> 45.6% of uh immigrants from Afghanistan are on SNAP, >> 42.4 from Somalia, >> 35% from Iraq, >> then it's Dominican, Caribbean, native, Puerto Rican, Cuban. So if I look at this number here, keep going all the way down, Rob. Keep going all the way down. All the way down, all the way down, all the way down. Okay. So then what do you see? Indians >> 4.4%. Why are Indians not our snap? >> Indians are not Christians. I don't care what the religion is. >> Okay, I'm not sitting here saying, well, you know, but if you go all the way to the top and you look at SNAP, why so why are we inviting more >> from Afghanistan, Somalia? I mean I would I need to study this in more depth but certainly the Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraqi I mean these are people I imagine predominantly who have fled war torn countries. So they by definition when they come to America going to be impoverished. >> Yeah. But but you know when America was founded it's about getting the best to come over here right. Like you run a business you you have uh one of the top shows if when it comes on to debate you're running the number one show in the world when it comes on to debate. I don't think anybody is doing a better job than you when it comes on to the debate shows. But you would sit there and you would say, "All right, can we look at the last 100 hires that we made?" Yes. >> What school did they come from? >> Okay. And we'll see a pattern. >> Who's been here that has the highest retention rate? And it'll say >> University of Florida, their tenure with our company is 3.8 years. You know, Florida State is 7 months. I'm just making stuff up. FIU is 1.1, you know, such and such is. And like, guys, no more recruiting from FI. I don't know the people at FIU. I don't know the people from Florida State. All I see is the tenure. When they come in, they're contri contributing to society in a positive way. I think from that standpoint, you have to consider who it's coming in. I don't care if you're Muslim, Christian, you know, uh, uh, Jehovah. >> Let me ask you, let me ask you a difficult question. So, you you fled your family here. >> I lived there for 11 years >> from a war torn place. We did, right? So take Iraq for example. I when I was editor of the Daily Mirror in the in the UK I opposed the Iraq war before, during and after it cost me my job in the end. >> Yeah. >> After 10 years running the newspaper, but I think I was vindicated by by what happened afterwards. >> That war was fought on a false pretext. Saddam was saying weapons of mass destruction. They never found them. So the the the and also there was this kind of subliminal we need to respond to 9/11. We can take out Saddam. I never saw that connection. it seemed to me completely wrong, much more arguable to go after uh where Bin Laden and his people were in Afghanistan. So I look at Iraqis, right, who who were displaced by a war which many people, including me, would say was an illegal war in their country that caused utter devastation. and they come to someone like the United States which has been the home of for people like that ever since its inception and is lorded around the world for that for being a place that you can come to right from places like that but is there not a particular duty of care maybe you don't think there is but it is there not duty of care do people who come from a war torn place like Iraq where the United States along with the UK and other countries wage that war in my view completely wrongly in a way that cause their displacement, cause them to lose their homes, maybe lose their loved ones, and they come here for a better life, but when they get here, they have nothing. Now, that may explain some of those numbers. I don't know. But certainly in that case you you got to think well okay if they're the ones who are getting the SNAP benefits okay what is the correlation between the ones who were displaced because of the actions of the United States and the UK the other allies that fought the Iraq war on their presence here in the United States and is there a duty of care towards them I don't think we should lose in the mix of all this a compassion towards genuine asylum seekers particularly from countries ravaged by wars which we may have been complicit in starting from my in my opinion on a false pretext. >> Yeah. I I think that uh uh is a I would sit there again. I would sit down and I would say if we're looking at anybody that's coming in, >> if we caused some of this, let's see what we can do about it. Now, of course, somebody in America could say, "Well, you caused >> caused all of it." Right? Okay, no problem. >> But if you're coming to America and you hate America, I have no tolerance for you. >> I agree with that. I agree. I agree. I agree. And you don't want to give anything back to the company. I have a country. I have a hard time with you being here. To me, you know what it's like? When I came here, >> I served the army. I've worked since the day I came to America. Even when I was selling hats and shirts when I was 13, 14 years old. >> I love everything about this country, America for me. And I think what ends up happening is when you're when you're in a family, and was your father rich? Do you do you come from a wealthy family? >> Not at all. And and I would have my brother was a British army colonel in the Iraq war, right? Fighting on the front lines. So I Your brother was my brother was. So I thought like I didn't have a vested interest. You know, half my family have been British. >> You know where I'm going. Here's kind of where I'm going. Your kids, your four kids. >> You have money. When something happens, your money is going to go to your kids right >> now. Are you going to give it equally if one of them says, "I hate my dad. He's the worst dad in the world. He's a You're not going to give it to >> No. I agree with you about people who come here and then vocally >> that's the problem appears the problem ends up happening is >> that's a separate problem to the one I'm articulating >> but what no but but what what I'm saying is the filtering to me it's the filtering if I see >> I if we if we do want and by the way the argument some people in America are like look we don't want anybody else to come in here this is plenty right there are people that I've had on the podcast that wouldn't even want me to be here right now they're like you know you got lucky getting in here which is their argument they have the right to have that argument >> how wrong how wrong is that argument >> I I I will tell you like I'm having this conversation. I got four kids. I'd like to have 20 kids, right? So I I flirt with my kids the other day. This was about 6 months ago. I said, "So it's 50-50 joke. It's not 100% of a joke." So I said, "Hey guys, what do you guys think about surrogate? If daddy wanted to go with mommy and we have a surrogate. We have five girls that are going to have a surrogate. You guys can have five uh siblings." My youngest son looks at me. >> Tell me what surrogate is. I think I know what it is. I said, "Well, it's mommy and daddy. It's really our kid, but somebody carries for 9 months. I don't want any of that. I said, why not? I don't want any of that cuz it's not in mommy's belly. We were on a mommy's belly. I want someone that's a mommy's belly. If you guys want to make another kid, it has to be mommy's belly. Right. >> The level of pride this kid has to be in a bed that the mommy gave birth to the kid. I actually understand it and respect it. You understand what I'm saying? Of course. >> I respect it. So, if somebody's born in America and they're kind of like, "Look, man. Yeah, maybe we got lucky with you, Pat, but we got a lot of ones that came through and we didn't get lucky with that. Hate America. I I you to me when I think about guys like Churchill you're talking about or Trump we're talking about. You know, hey, I cannot believe what he's doing with ICE and you know, he single-handedly closed up the border, crime is gone. Even Kla Harris said we got the border wrong and they did a better job of it. I think there there's a little bit of a flirting with tolerance >> and just looking the other way where we're where you know when we when I talk any anytime I have somebody here from UK that I'm talking about UK stats UK government doesn't give any stats you guys can't even study what's working what's not working it's like a secret no because if you guys knew it with so much more of the crime who is doing the crime at least in America we can sit there and look at is black-on-black crime the most is it white-on-white crime is it white on black is it black on white what is it percentage not based on numbers cuz of course there's more whites living here. No, oh shoot, we'll show it. Even though it goes against what the Democratic party wants to see. No, we don't want to talk about that because of fatherless communities. We need some stats. So I think if you looked at the stats and the data >> and it shows that any of the immigrants are coming from a certain country who assimilate, love the country, don't want any entitlement programs, they create businesses, they create jobs, they make it safer. Let's get more. If not, listen, keep it where it's at. To me, that's where it stops. M well listen I I don't disagree with the ideology behind that. I mean you you should only want people who going to come and contribute to society. I would add the caveat of the Iraq caveat which is if you go and bomb a country and you destroy people's lives. I do think a country like the United States most prosperous country in the world does have a duty of care to bring some of those people into its country as it has done with the Iraqi community. That's what if that's a royal screw-up on another administration that you never agreed with them cuz Trump doesn't agree with Bush. And remember if there's any guy that has moral authority to say I never supported that war. It's the guy that bought a full page ad. I think it was on USA Today. Remember that one thing that he did back in the days. It's like I am not for this war. Right? >> So maybe he's saying I didn't do that. Bush did that. That wasn't my doing. I'm changing it. We're going to do a different >> Well, the good thing under Trump is that clearly and unusually for a Republican president of modern times, he is a man who prefers peace to war. I mean, he shows that with his actions first in his first term and what he's done now. I mean, now I mean this idea, the debate about whether he gets a Nobel Peace Prize. Barack Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize for two fancy speeches eight months into his first tenure. I mean, absolutely insane. The idea Trump wouldn't get one for simply getting the hostages released, never mind anything else. You want to know the craziest thing about Barack Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? >> You You ready? You're going to lose your mind when I tell you this. >> So, you know how we always say 8 months into being president? Eight months into being president. >> Do you know to win a Nobel Peace Prize, they have to nominate you before January 31st? >> He becomes 11 days. >> 11 [laughter] DAYS INTO >> THAT'S RIDICULOUS. RIDICULOUS. >> THAT MEANS SOMEONE did it the day you've inaugurated. [screaming] [laughter] >> I know. >> That's this right there. The deadline for Nobel's Peace Prize nomination is January 31st. The guy wins 20 at 11. I didn't know that. Did you not know? That's a wildest story when you think about that. Even more insane. >> So, Pierce, for you, the the one thing that I think you uh probably are have a lot of moral authority on this is the following. October 7 happens, Hamas attacks Israel, and we watch the whole thing, right? And then you do Bassm and then you host all of these debates and you're like, "Wait a minute. What did they do to P? What is it going?" So you kind of what go from the pendulum cuz I personally watch you go like this three, four times because it seems like you're coming from a place that we're like, "Wait, they're doing that. I'm not with that." And >> where did you go there day one to where are you now? Probably the most reasonable opinion is where you are today because you've kind of watched it going back and forth. What's your opinion on what happened there? >> Well, first of all, October the 7th was one of the most heinous terror attacks of modern times. The worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust in World War II. These are undeniable facts. Hamas committed an act that day which immediately established them as a terrorist organization who therefore renounced any uh rights to any governmental power at the end of all this. So that all happened on October the 7th with the scale of what they did. 1,200 people killed uh nearly 7,000 wounded 255 six people kidnapped I mean absolutely despicable horrific thing so for many months after that to the angst of many on the pro Palestinian side and fury in some cases I steadfastly defended Israel's right to defend itself in fact I said they didn't just have a right to defend themselves but given that the Hamas official spokesman went on the airways about a week after the October over the seventh atrocity to say we're going to keep doing this again and again. The Israeli government had a duty, not just a right, but a duty to defend its people from further attacks from Hamas. So, okay, I laid my credentials down. People like Bassam Ysef came on and gave me a very hard time, but I always platform people like him. I platform people on both sides throughout the world. Always. And the bigger the followings I had, the more passionate the better because they were the ones getting most of the hearing on the airwaves. And I believe it's my job is to hear all the voices, challenge them all and let the viewers work out what where they think the reality lies. And I continue and I would still defend Israel's right to defend itself. Right? I mean, Hamas are a terrible organization. I've never disputed that at all. And I don't dispute it today. So when people on the really sort of more extremities of the pro-Israeli uh side, you know, accuse me of, you know, being a pro- Hamas guy, it's so pathetic. you know, nothing I've ever said is anything other than they're a disgusting terror group and should have no power after all of this. Uh, and they should lay down their arms and that's going to be the big debate as whether they do. But then this year and in particular uh several things happened. One was the 3-month blockade which you know I've heard the arguments that there was no starvation. You never saw a starving Palestinian blah blah blah blah blah. And one of the inherent problems actually with that and with a lot of the IDF blanket denials of things or we're going to set up an inquiry and investigation when things go wrong. Fog of war stuff happens. But the Israeli government's persistent to this day refusal to allow independent media into Gaza to do their jobs has been a massive problem for their credibility. If you've nothing to hide or worry about in terms of what you're doing, let war correspondents do their job. And as a journalist, I think it's a fundamental principle which they have continued to abregate in a pretty shameful way actually. And it does in inevitably raise in me as a journalist suspicions about what they're hiding which means they don't want to let journalists in particularly even since the ceasefire. Still journalists aren't allowed in by the Israeli government. So the blockade I felt was a likely to pass the threshold of the criminal act. You know, when you have a a country that has the control over a border like Israel does over Gaza, allowing hardly any supplies of food or aid to go in, then I think that is a criminal act. Now, a lot of the official bodies like the United Nations and others said the same thing, but Israel doesn't take any of them seriously. So, again, I don't know for sure what was happening in that period because I didn't see any independent journalist reporting on it. I do know Palestinian journalists reported on it and 220 odd have been killed during the during the conflict. So there's a there's not just a fog of war about this. There's a deliberate suppression by the Israeli government of allowing journalists to do their job, international independent journalists. I think that's to their great discredit. So I didn't like I thought the blockade was just crossed every line. Then they undid the blockade. But the bombardment was relentless. And I kept saying to people throughout the war from day one. I don't know what a proportionate response is here. There have been flare ups in this conflict going back seven decades. We have never seen anything on the scale of what Hamas did that day. And we've never seen anything on the scale of the response by the Israeli government to you. They've killed 65 nearly 70,000 people. None of the ones we know about that. That's you know obviously you take again you have to take the figures from the Gaza run health authority. the Hamas run health authority Gaza because there is no other way of establishing it. Historically, those figures have normally proven to be quite accurate, but Israel keeps trying to foggy those numbers, deny them, obiscate and so on, to which I say, "Well, let the journalists in. Let's find the truth." They don't want to do that. So, again, that's my big bug bear with this. How you get to the actual >> You think it's a genocide or a war? >> I don't think it's a genocide simply for one reason. The word genocide gets banded about a lot. It means the willful systematic destruction of a people. And I don't think that's what we've seen in Gaza much as people on the prop palestinian side try and get me to say it. No actual declaration of genocide has been waged against any. I mean even in Rwanda they never established it as an international court that it was a genocide. So I didn't know I learned all this actually covering all this on my show. I had a bunch of genocide experts on. Many think it is a genocide, but many don't think it is. But they all pointed out that actually the bar for reaching genocide is exceptionally high. And you know, as people have pointed out, there are other flash points around the world right now where probably many more people are getting killed. No one cares. No one's putting any spotlight on it. So I I think that the rhetoric that's come from people like Smodrich and Bengavir on the Israeli government side who keep you know every time they go off and they're very extreme far right guys. They clearly have had a plan almost from day one of this to turn the events of October the 7th into an opportunity to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians. And by that I mean just kick them out. And they've now been openly talking about this this year. So once I saw that happening, I was like, "Okay, there are elements of this government who genuinely do want not just to to dismantle Hamas and get the hostage released. They want to kick the Palestinians out of Gaza. They want to annex the West Bank." They said it. They you can hear the tapes. And then I then I hear, "Well, they they don't matter. Their opinions don't matter. They're senior members of the government." Um so I just felt that was to me Yeah. And this guy, I mean, this guy is an absolute lunatic, as is Smodridge. And I'm sorry, they they do matter. They're serious players in this Israeli government. And so they have been waging a rhetorical campaign of wanting ethnic cleansing, which is a crime. So I don't think it's reached the bar of a genocide simply by comparison to other places where it's not being called a genocide. However, and I do, you know, I've bought the argument that if Israel clearly has nuclear weapons, they don't admit it, but they clearly have them. If they wanted to drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza, they could have done. I I understand if you're waging a deliberate genocide of a whole populace, you could do that. I I get that argument, okay? But I do think they've got to be more accountable for what these guys on the government have been saying because what they're talking about is ethnically cleansing. Now, to Trump's great credit, I think for this alone, he should get the Nobel Peace Prize, never mind anything else. He got the hostages released, but he also made it clear to Netanyahu, you are not going to annex the West Bank, and I want the Palestinian people to come back to Gaza, and we're going to rebuild this with a coalition of people helping to rebuild it and try and once and for all get this situation sorted in a way that we had with Northern Ireland, for example, near my country, where after decades and decades of conflict between waring neighbors, in the end, when nobody thought it could happen in the late 90s, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Senator Mitchell got together and they managed to barrel through a peace plan that has pretty well held steady ever since and the killing stopped on both sides. This can be done. It's incredibly difficult, but I am delighted that Donald Trump in my opinion has has barreled through some common sense into Netanyahu, who was being fueled by these guys. >> Have you have you interviewed Netanyahu? >> Yeah, three three times, but not since the war started. >> Okay, that's the part I mean, I'm talking about during the war. So, have you reached out to him? >> Yeah. Yeah. He He won't come on. >> Why? Why? Why do you think >> he doesn't want to answer these questions? >> So, you've invited him, but he won't come on there. >> Yeah. Many, many, many times. I've interviewed him three times before. I went to Jerusalem. I went to his office uh for CNN back in 2011 12. >> So, if he agreed to have you on and go, you'd go to Israel to interview him. >> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. >> Very interesting that he hasn't come on with you. Okay. uh in regards to you know you've had Ben Shapiro on when he was super young when you were you know what I'm talking about when you had him on your constitution when you guys had that conversation you had Alex Jones on when he came in with the whole uh you know 1776 >> well he had a he had a petition to deport me and it [laughter] was quite funny actually because he said that um he said that because of my opposition to or criticism of the second amendment um that I should be deported and in fact Obama was president and it was done on the White House petitions page and if it reached I think it was a threshold of 25,000 signatures the president had to give a verdict and it went to like 120,000 people signed the thing to have me deported and Obama I was I was on air at the time and the news came you're not going to believe this Obama's just saved you for the American people what do you mean they said he's you can stay he said that you're covered by your first amendment rights which apply to anybody who's living in America uh citizen or not you're covered by your first amendment rights to criticize the second amendment. And he was absolutely right. I was um so you know, I don't want to relitigate my whole view about guns in America, it rapidly became clear to me that whilst I may have validity to my views, these were not views shared by many Americans and we didn't want to hear a Brit lecture on how to how to lead their lives. I get it. But on that point, they both missed the fundamental point, which is I was entitled under my first amendment rights to criticize the Second Amendment. And so I should be. And your position hasn't changed about Second Amendment? >> Well, no. I mean, I think my position has changed in this regard. I would say that I come from a country that used to be steeped in guns. Everybody had a gun 200 years ago in Britain. And now very few people have a gun. We had a horrific mass shooting like Sandy Hook at Dumblain in Scotland in the mid '90s. I was editor of the Daily Mirror at the time. Uh it led to a very interesting campaign started by a conservative prime minister John Major taken up by Tony Blair, Labour Prime Minister, a cross party agreement that we were going to stop most private ownership of guns to try and stop this happening because the person who did it in Dumblain, Thomas Hamilton, had built up a big arsenal of private weapons and it was successful and now we've not had a mass shooting since. Um in Australia they had a horrific one in Hobart in Tasmania. 35 people got murdered around the same year. Actually, they did a buyback program and I think six 700,000 guns got handed in and the government paid people for them. They've not had a mass shooting like that since Hobart. So, you know, it's different culture. America, >> are you more open to it now? >> Well, no. What I would say is this. America has 400 million guns in circulation. Neither Britain nor Australia had more than, you know, a tiny >> but with all the knife crimes that's going on in in in London, >> we have a problem with knife crime. >> Okay. So, but why do you think you have a knife crime problem? >> Too many knives in in use on the streets. I mean, I would make the punishment for being caught with a knife on the street extremely poor. >> We have a lot We probably have more knives than you guys have. How come we don't have a lot of knives? >> You have a gun violence problem. We have a knife crime problem. >> What is the ratio of the knife to gun uh gun uh problem >> in the UK? There's hardly we have hardly any gun violence at all. >> No, no, no, no. What I'm saying is the number of knife crime problems in UK compared to the gun crime problems that we have in the US. Oh, what's the ratio? Oh well, and I think you have still between 80 and 90,000 people a year in America die from gun from guns. That includes suicide, which is a large number of that, but it also includes homicides and uh and accidents. UK has a tiny tiny fraction of of gun, but also the knife uh victims would be a tiny fraction of that. So, we're talking a very very small percentage of your gun deaths a year. If you were to be the prime minister, would you consider >> opening up and having folks in UK have guns or you have zero tolerance? >> Well, I think you have to I think it's interesting. I do look there are lots of aspects of that gun debate I had here where I understood um the American viewpoint. I mean, Jay Leno said to me, peers, it's like you going to Germany and lecturing them every night on television about speeding too fast on the autobar, [laughter] right? They don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear it from you and they definitely don't want to hear it from your action. >> Safe to drive 150 an hour. [laughter] Get the hell out. >> And he said, he said, he said, "Look, the smart crowd know you're right." He said, "Because too many people get killed." He said, "But most Germans wouldn't want to hear it from you, and they definitely don't want to hear it from your accent. I get it." Okay, this was not a debate that could be led by a British accent. Um, however, however, I would simply put this caveat out there, and I wish I'd made the debate actually about gun safety, not gun control. I think the word control to the average American is total anthra. It's like a warning sign goes off and I get that. Um, but I do think in a country with over 400 million guns in circulation with the amount of gun deaths you have a year and general gun violence, you have an almost unique cultural issue with guns in America, which never gets tackled at all. A million new guns get sold every month in America. So, the number of guns in circulation rises exponentially all the time. And it's logical to assume that the number of gun deaths will rise exponentially too in line with the amount of guns in circulation. My targets were never law-abiding peaceful people who want to use guns for shooting. My brother was a British army colonel. One of the best shots in the army. I don't get shooting for sport or in the military or any controlled environment. The problem is when you have it in such open usage in civilian uh usage to me that I get the self-defense thing particularly if everybody else has a gun. Uh but at some point I do think the amount of mass shootings you have in America at some point there has to be a mature non-confrontational debate about what actually as a society can be done to make things safer. Let's use the word safety not control. And let it not be a Brit like me that leads this debate. Let it be Americans having the debate amongst themselves in a way that can remain calm and rational and simply focused on reducing the number of people who get killed by guns. >> Have you had Alex Jones on since that uh >> Yeah, I have. Yeah. Um >> so you guys have done stuff together. >> Yeah. My my issue with him was actually a lot of it was performative, but my issue with him was the defamation case brought against him by the Sandy Hook families. He was it emerged in the case that there was there were graphs that showing that every time he went on the airwave to lie about the Sandy Hook thing being staged and the families being behind it, two things would happen. One, there'd be a massive spike in his earnings, and we're talking tens of millions of dollars were coming into him every time he did this on the airwaves. They showed how that worked. And secondly, you would have people then believing this who would go to gravesides and they would urinate on the graves of the child victims. And I'm sorry to me that's just unconscionable that someone would do that. And this idea that he didn't know that he was spewing lies is [ __ ] Of course he knew. So he was deliberately perpetrating a lie about Sandy Hook being staged to make money and in doing so endangering the lives of all those things. I interviewed those families. I was think it's unconsionable. I I had an argument with Elon Musk about it um because he was going to come on my show and he pulled it at the last minute because he found a clip uh that someone sent him of me criticizing him for allowing Alex Jones back on the platform. You may remember when he bought X bought Twitter, he said he was going to keep Jones off the platform because he didn't like the way he he danced on the grayer children. I agree with him and I was disappointed when he let him come back on because I think that he was his whole business model was telling deliberate lies about >> disappointed he let him back on. Interesting. By the way, you you you've had Ben on, you've had uh Candace on, you've had you have you had Tucker on? You've done stuff with Tucker as well, right? Okay. What do you think about what's going on right now? Especially this week, the Ben Shapiro comes out, makes the video about the fact that Tucker had Nick Quentes on and yeah, makes a 41minute video calling him out and how dare you have somebody that's celebrating Stalin and Hitler and all this other stuff. Where is your position with everything that's going on within the Republican influencer party? >> Really interesting. Uh I like a lot of them. I get on very well with Tucker, with Candice, with Ben. Always have done. I've never met or interviewed Fuentes. My issue was Tucker gave me we we met in Riad in a desert by chance. We're both speaking at the same event earlier this year and we did a 90minute interview on each other's shows. Me interviewing him then him going after me. When he went after me, if you watch it back, it was very entertaining, very enjoyable, but a good old, you know, tussle. But a bit like when he went after Ted Cruz and stuff, he held nothing back going after me and Ted Cruz. But with Fuentes, I just felt he was oddly like not doing that. And so the question then becomes for me, well, why wouldn't you go after someone like Fuentes? The stuff he said on the record is so appalling in many cases. There's so much stuff that as an interviewer you have to go after him about. So my criticism was not that he platformed and Tucker is right. He can platform anybody likes. He's one of the biggest platforms in the world. Uh my only criticism was why didn't you give him as hard a time as he gave me. >> I think that's fair. I think that's what I'm doing now. But so you would house Nick Fuentes. Well, I I think in light of all the controversy about him, it'd be quite interesting to get him on my show and actually do an uncensored number on him where I go after him about a lot of the stuff he said on the record. Um, I think now it's >> You would lose your Jewish donors though if you do that. So, I just want to prepare you for >> I don't I don't care about things like that. >> You're going to lose that kind of stuff. >> I never care about any financial impact to anything I do. I think you got to be intellectually honest in this game. I think you are when I watch you and >> I appreciate that. You know, you know what I would say when I think about like our jobs, what we do versus think about the nonprofit job, >> the nonprofit job, >> guys are giving you a few million dollars, they're not going to get anything in return because they support the cause. >> So imagine if all of a sudden you're like, well, you know, like Heritage, we are no matter what they tell us, we're going to protect and be for Tucker forever. And then the next day, listen, we were a little bit inappropriate with our comments and we have changed our position all because the donors threatened to walk out. So >> that charity, the nonprofit uh uh sector is a slippery slope because you worry about losing that $4 million fund, the $2 million fund, the $3 million guy that's going to take the money away. Um, >> you know, I had this kind of debate about the platforming of people like Andrew Tate and stuff and Candace Owens when I platform and I kind of evolved my view a little bit to the degree that I think that these people have huge huge followings. >> You can either pretend they don't or you can accept they do and they either have an unchallenged platform of their own to just say whatever they want to say. Take with Candice for example. I've had a couple of big busts with her about this ridiculous assertion that Bridgie Macron is a man, right? I think it's 100% [ __ ] I think she knows it is, but she's now being sued by Bridget Mron who will probably prove very easily she's a woman in court. Uh, and Candice will lose, but I'm sure spin it into some kind of pirick victory, and that's her business. But if I have her on, I challenge her about it. We have a proper old ding-dong about it. And actually I do think that probably society and democracy is better served by having people who have big big followings. Give them a platform but challenge them. That should be the challenge for everybody. I do that with anyone but I just think having people who've got very contentious views on where you don't challenge them. That that's an abrogation of your duty as a platformer because otherwise what are you really doing? you're just giving them more oxygen for views. And if you don't agree with them, you know, I thought it was very interesting when Tucker went after Ted Cruz and said, "Well, what's the population of Iran?" You didn't know. It was a viral moment and we all thought that was a brilliant moment. But you do think, well, why was there no viral moment like that out of your two-hour interview with Fuentes? You know, I can guarantee there would be if I was with Fuentes, he'd probably give me some hammer, too. Fine, fair enough. I can take it. But I do think he needs to be challenged. Fuentes has a massive following, increasingly influential amongst young men in particular, as does Andrew Tate. I've interviewed Tate a few times and I think I hold his feet to the fire and he gives it back and actually young people who watch it who maybe have a view of him that is unchallengeable from his own arena, see him being challenged and can maybe change their views. >> Who did you interview in in that in UK when he walked on the streets, you went to restaurants, people said, "I cannot believe you, you know, put him on platform." Who was the number one person that you got criticism in the streets? >> Probably probably Andrew Tate >> above everybody, >> I think. So, yeah. He's the most divisive figure that I interview uh on a more regular basis. Yeah. Um and it's a tricky one. You know, I' I'd sort of buy into Tucker's thing that you should if you got a platform, you should better interview who the hell you like. I mean, when he did Putin, for example, he got a lot of stick for doing it. But would would any journalist turn down the chance of interviewing Vladimir Putin? And if you're honest, would you go to Moscow and then start haranging him to his face? Probably not. So, you know, I would probably say I'll interview you, Mr. I can't even go there because I'm on his sanctions list, but if I if I if I said, "Look, next time you're in Washington or London, I'll do an interview with you." I'd probably feel more comfortable because then you can ask him tougher questions. >> This is who? Tate. >> Uh, no. Putin. >> Oh, Putin. >> Yeah. >> So, so have you reached out to want to sit down? >> Yeah, we've had no from him. >> Yeah, he's getting no from him. Yeah, >> I did Zilinski in Ke. That was a good interview. Yeah, he would be interesting. But by the way, where are you at with, you know, the Epson story? And and the reason why the Epson story is interesting with you is Prince Andrew BK family, you know, he's not a prince anymore. They change. We have to even say the name correctly, which >> I don't what do we call him the other day, Rob? It was like a full-on name that >> Andrew Mountbotton. >> Yeah. Andrew Mountbot. Yeah. So, you know, with all this stuff over the years, >> what's your position with who Epstein was? Um, I think he was a predatory pedophile. I think that he operated with other people who knew that these girls were underage and were happy to abuse them. I've interviewed David Boy, who was Virginia Dupre's lawyer and represented many of the other victims. He's seen the files. He thinks there are six to a dozen high-profile men named in them who should potentially face criminal prosecution, which begs the question, why do we not know who those people are? Why are they not being prosecuted? In Andrew's case, I had a view about this early on, which was you could legitimately say if you knew Epstein before his conviction for pedophilia, you could legitimately, I think, with your head held high say or with credibility say, "I didn't know anything about that, but the moment I found out about it, I never saw him again." Okay, there are people that did that. Donald Trump, I think, is one of the people who had nothing more to do with him after his conviction for for being a pedophile with a 14-year-old girl. Uh, anyone who didn't do that is willingly continuing to consult with a convicted pedophile. Very different credibility stakes. Andrew's problem and his wife Sarah Fergus and ex-wife had the same problem was they made public declarations that we never saw him again after a certain time. And then the US Congress has been going through all the files and releasing emails in drops which have contradicted those claims. It's now clear that Andrew and his ex-wife continued to have contact with Epste after they publicly said, "I disowned him." And so they were caught lying, which is why it's now spiraled in the last few weeks to where Andrew has now been effectively droyd by his brother, the king, because the king had no option. you you know we and also if we already know he's lying what more is coming down the pipe from these Congress leaks I mean who knows right um so it could get worse for Andrew before it gets any better he might well end up in a courtroom um you know the FBI are desperate to interview him under oath I don't think he has any chance of ever making any return to any form of public life if he doesn't go under oath to the authorities and say everything he knows I think he's been lying I think he obviously knew Virginia Du Fray I think he obviously did have uh sex with her. I think that he uh has been very disingenuous about all that and I think he's now been shamed and disgraced and everything else, but he hasn't been brought to any criminal account and many people will feel that he should be. H >> how how embarrassing do you think this is for the family? >> Do you think this is something where the family is sitting there saying, >> you know, uh because this is a different challenge than Harry and Megan >> there's no comparison. Harry and Megan are annoying little grifters who've who now use their royal status to trash the royal family, trash the monarchy and make millions of dollars. I I don't like what they do. I think it's horrible. Particularly >> how miserable you think Harry is right now. >> Oh, he looks he looks completely >> Do you think he really is happy in love being in a >> He looks like a doped out misery guts to me. And I just think it's the full reality. I mean, look, who could be happy when you're estranged from all your family? And she's estranged from hers, by the way, too. apart from her mother, her father lives 50 mi away, has never met her husband or her two kids. He's the guy that brought her up on his own for 8 years. Remember, it's a very weird story, the whole thing. Um, but I think, look, the level of what they've done, Andrew's on a different class, higher of shame he's brought on the family. There's a big difference between being grifters making money out of trashing a family and actually being actively involved in one of the worst pedophile scandals of modern times with this guy Jeffrey Epstein. And I think that we don't know the full story yet about Andrew, but we may well find out through the criminal process that's ongoing. >> What do you think more is more likely? Andrew being innocent, going back in the family, becoming a prince again, or Harry leaving Megan, going back, apologizing, and being received again? >> Well, Andrew will never be a prince again. that ship has definitely sailed. I don't think you'll ever uh go to America and be interviewed. So, you'll never clear his name either. I think he'll live a life of shame as a pariah. Um I think it's more I mean, look, who knows about Harry and Megan? I think they kind of deserve each other. They kind of [laughter] they're kind of joined at the hip now in their situation, but almost everything they do is so-handed. Like the other day they went to the baseball, she posts some cringe video dancing. >> You have this. >> Can you play this? This is This has got to be the worst fake celebration thing [laughter] I've seen in my life. And And you met her before, right? You and >> Megan had I actually met her once, but we'd had a we I followed four of them on Suits. I used to love watching Suits and I followed four other characters. And she immediately direct messaged me, which was quite telling looking back on it, saying >> she DM'd you? >> Yeah. Oh my god, I'm your biggest fan. All this kind of stuff within about five minutes. Right. So her and another guy called Rick Hoffman who played Lewis Lit who was her big friend on the show. The three of us then used to exchange messages all just quite fun. They'd send me clips from future episodes and so on. And then she said, "I'm coming to London. Can we meet up for a drink?" I went, "Sure." Took her to my local pub. Actually got on very well. I thought she was very nice and she was very great. Really enjoyed it. Sent the pictures to Rick back in wherever he was. All very nice. And then bang, suddenly never heard from her again. Never heard from him either. Rick Hoffman, who was neither of them were known in the UK. I was like, who are you two little? What's happened? Right. And then of course I see the story about Harry and I. I was okay. Well, that makes sense. But Hoffman, you you disowned me [laughter] as a friend of the person now. Yeah. Well, no, he he actually was quite funny. He sent me a graveling message. I've still got a graveling message the day after the wedding, which he attended, saying, "Pers, I'm so sorry. I hope you understand. It's all been so difficult." I do. [ __ ] off. So, [laughter] um, but anyway, look, it turned out she had a pattern of of basically disowning every single person from her life, including her father who might who might somehow be a problem because obviously Harry hates the papers. I used to run a tabloid paper. I got that. But she just wanted to cut loose anybody. We saw it with friends and family and ex-husbands and so on. anyone that might be a problem for her world plan. Yeah. Which was getting a claws into a British royal prince, yanking him back to California and making hundreds of millions. And we've seen how the rest has played out. >> Was the conversation that it was it flirty with the two of you or No. Just just just like meeting nothing crazy. >> No, no, no, no, no, no. People have tried to paint it as so funny. I mean, you know, just look at pictures of my wife. >> No, no. I get that. [laughter] I'm I'm just saying because uh this is them, Rob, at the baseball deal celebrating the Dodgers. Yeah, I believe this their home theater. >> Oh my. Press it. [laughter] >> Oh my god. I can't. It's like geese. [screaming] Geese being attacked. >> Oh my god. >> Absolutely. >> But how many times you think they did that? That's take three or take eight. >> One of them. Also, also he's now given an apology for wearing a Dodgers cap. You see him there in the Dodgers cap. Why is he sitting there miserable and her gloating given that the week before he'd been at one of the World Series games in a Dodgers cap in the Dodger owners dugout? None of it makes any sense. Now suddenly a week later he's sitting there miserable because the Dodgers have won. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, she to me is one of the most uh what's the word I'm looking for? Cringe, annoying, narcissist. [laughter] >> She has to be the combination of those three. I don't know anybody more annoying than her. But uh you know and and what's what's challenging is she's attractive but you look at that personality you wonder if you go on a date what would that if you married her what would happen don't do that again put your hand over here hold me why don't you hold me tighter come closer I don't like your mother there's something about your dad there's something about your sister there's some something about you I need you to stop talking to that person I don't think it's inappropriate you make me feel this you make me feel small oh I can't wait to spend the rest of my life with you sweetheart this is going to be an incredible romantic journey we're going to go on by the Crazy question. Uh, when you were on, was it Britain's Got Talent or America's Got? You did both of them, right? You both for like six years or whatever the timeline was. >> There's one of them I saw and I have to ask you this. Can you can you go up all the way to the part and it's this? This is one of my favorite ones. Okay. And go back a little bit. Go back a little bit. Go right there. Right there. Okay. No, no, no, no. Go 10 seconds. So, you know which one this is. Okay. Shaheen. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. He crushes, right? And they they put him up and he comes in. He sings the song and then all of a sudden uh uh Simon says, "No, no, no. We got it all wrong." Right. And I'm sure they're not going to let us have this in the clip, but uh play played rap from here. So he comes on, press play, incredible voice. >> Oh wow. >> He he wanted everything to always feel spontaneous. >> So why do you why do you smiling? What do you think is going on here? Cuz he comes out this guy. >> Well, I'm smiling because I've seen Simon stop people before and he always had a fixed idea of the kind of You could hear someone sing. Yeah, he got an amazing ability to do this where he'd hear someone sing in particular and he would know that the type of song they were singing was not showing off their range properly. So he would often say to why don't you just try a different type of song >> and he crushes >> and sometimes sometimes I come back and it would be a disaster and that's why I'm like holding my go this kid's great Simon don't do that to this kid but then of course he was great. So, this has nothing to do with the fact that it's set up cuz he comes back, he does uh Michael Jackson, and then from there, they love his voice so much that he ends up performing at his funeral >> uh uh you know, year later, whatever the timeline is. So, right after this, you come down >> and I think you get Larry King's job after this, right? >> So, how does that happen? >> Well, actually, no, in between I won Celebrity Apprentice, which is where I meet Donald Trump. Okay. So, I was doing NBC's America's Got Talent and they also then launched the first season of Celebrity Apprentice, which was the celeb version of the regular apprentice show. And uh I immediately got on well with with Trump and of course I spent about a hundred hours in the boardroom opposite him. So, I got to know him very very well because I was there right to the end and then I won. And when I won, I remember him saying in the live finale, he said, "Pers," he said, "You're you're tough. You're vicious. You're probably brilliant. I'm not sure." He said, "But you beat the hell out of everybody. you're my celebrity apprentice. So when he won the presidency years later, this is 2008 2016 he becomes president. 2015 2016 and I said to him uh I sent him a note. I said, "Dear Donald," I said, "You're tough. You're vicious. You're probably brilliant. I'm not sure, but you beat the hell out of everybody. You're the president of the United States." >> Oh yeah. He rang me straight away. We had a brilliant conversation. And he was [laughter] like, he said, "Can you believe the journey we've been?" In fact, he he said it again. I rang him the morning after he put it I put this in my book the morning after he won. So he wins at like 2:00 a.m. makes his victory speech goes to bed. Now I know he never sleeps but I was like I bet even by his standards he's sleepd deprived. So I thought I'll just leave it. Rang him at 9:00 in the morning on his on his cell phone and it rang and rang around and eventually this very sleepy horse for peers. Can you believe this? I went actually I can. It's amazing complete clean sweep. And he said can you believe the journey again the journey we've been on? I said with all due respect Mr. President, you've been on a slightly bigger journey than me. [laughter] I've gone I've gone from judging piano playing pigs to winning your show to replacing Larry King to now to a morning show and now doing a YouTube channel. You have gone from making me your celebrity apprentice to becoming president of the United States twice and it's been an unbeliev. So, you know, I I have a a long time I've had of being a friend of Donald Trump's. I see the good, bad, and ugly in him, but overall I think he is a force for good. And I think this time round what you're seeing is somebody who's thought really carefully about all the things he didn't get right the first time round and the people he had around him in particular had a lot of disloyal people first time you can notice this time there's hardly any briefing against him internally very loyal group of people he has and I think they're on a mission to knowing the midterms are coming after two years you get basically a two-year window this is why he's gone so fast to stuff to try and really entrench Trumpism into making America great again. And we'll see if how successful he ends up being. But I certainly think there's more good and bad than bad in Trump. And I think people who try and overdemonize him, call him a new Hitler and so on, it's so fatuous and ridiculous and so self harming. All it did in the end was get him reelected. >> Yep. Big name. By the way, uh your book that's uh coming out, folks, before we talk about your book, Woke is Dead, I want to play a clip for you. Do you know what your most viewed clip is on YouTube? >> Um >> don't don't go to it. Let's first see if you can guess. Do you know what's your most >> It's a short. >> Really? >> Do you know this or No, >> it's not the one from Baby Reindeer, is it? No. No. Okay. Which one is it? >> No. This This is It may be Baby Reindeer. Yeah. Yeah. It may be played rap. This is your most viewed [laughter] clip. 58 million views. And I think this is appropriate to play this. Yeah. >> Because this goes right into your book. Rob, if you have it, press play. >> Are you so triggered by a flag? >> Rainbow flag. >> I'm not triggered by rainbow flag. I'm triggered by the fact that everywhere I go for a gallon a month, everything has to be a rainbow flag. Well, I'm triggered that everywhere I go for the entire year, everything has to be straight. Where is Why is straight? >> Where's my straight flag? >> Why am I constantly >> Where is my straight flag? When have you ever seen a straight flag? Where's my straight flag? >> It's everywhere. >> There's never been a straight flag. >> Both of you are straight and you're [music] saying you're exact. >> How do you know I'm straight? How dare you guess my [laughter] Let's not play games here. >> How many letters are there now in the >> such a pointless? How many are >> I don't even know. How many are there? I don't need TO KNOW EXACTLY MY POINT. We need to know because it's not about >> there are so many letters now we can't keep up with it. You can pause it right there Rob. So what's crazy about this that leads to your book woke is dead. Yeah. How common sense triumphant in an age of total madness. Why did you choose to write this book? >> Because I felt in a way that Trump's uh reelection was the ultimate repudiation of a really insidious thing. this woke mind virus as Elon Musk calls it which for years had kind of dominated our lives. It was best described to me an Australian woman came up to me in the street in London. She said, "Mr. Morgan, I hope you don't mind me interrupting your walk." She said, "But keep at it these wokies. They're the most joyless people in the world. They want to suck all the joy out of life." And I was like, "God, what a brilliant description." Because if you think about it, the woke disciples wake up every day. They don't find any joke funny. They don't think we should be watching half of the TV shows we like, the movies we like. We shouldn't be revering the historical figures we rever. You know, they want to tell us how to how to talk, how to how to dress, you know, what what things we can wear culturally appropriate and appropriate and so on and so on. It's a constant scolding, but also it's laced with a very nasty streak, particularly from those who have be kind hashtags in their bios. I've noticed where they're the most vicious people. And anyone who deviates from their kind of woke world view has to be shamed, vilified, scolded, destroyed, cancelled, and as we saw ultimately if you call everybody disagrees with a fascist even when they're not. uh and you have this sort of narrow prison which if people don't follow it, they have to be cancelled. You end up with deranged minds doing what the shooter did with Charlie Kirk. There's a direct line that goes from that kind of thinking where you only allow one type of opinion and the irony of someone like Charlie Kirk who openly welcomed other opinions would openly debate with anybody. He would go on to these campuses with thousands of people who didn't agree with him and say, "Come and prove me wrong." Right? It's hard to imagine a better standardbearer for actual free speech in a democratic society than someone like Charlie Kirk. And he would listen to them with respect and everything else. And for that, he got a bullet uh which killed him. And he got it from someone who put anti-fascist slogans on the bullets because he believed Charlie Kirk was a fascist because that's what everyone had told him. And he didn't like what Charlie Kirk says and believes. It's an import that is fascism. That's the irony. These people became the new fascist. >> It is [snorts] so true. I'm I'm fully with you and I'm so glad you wrote this book. Uh folks, if you haven't placed the order yet, go click on a link below, order the book, uh support this message. God knows we need more of this message uh spreading around the world with the mandates we experienced the last 5 years and not thinking it's over with because it's still there. We still got some fight to do. We were showing a video earlier today of a lady who goes to Gold's gym >> and she's in the gym and this guy's hanging there with his dangling hanging out. She's like, "What are we doing? I'm just trying to work out. I'm a woman." And she's a lesbian woman in the bathroom. So, it's still there in certain pockets of the world. >> She got banned. She got banned. And the guy >> who apparently his name is Alexis, whatever his name is, Grant or Alexis, I don't know what his name is, but >> he was allowed to stay in the gym and not the other way around. He went back into the woman's bathroom. Pierce, uh, great to have you on as usual. It's always a good conversation and I love the fact that it's this way, Ron. Yes. So, I want to learn more about where you're at as well. >> Yeah, I really enjoyed it. >> Likewise. Appreciate you. Great to see you. >> Thank you. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. When we set out to create a shoe that [music] blends comfort, function, and luxury. We had the choice to make it fast. We had the choice to make it cheap. We chose neither. Instead, we chose Tuscano. We chose [music] true Italian craftsmanship. Each pair touched by 50 skilled hands. We chose patience, spending two years perfecting every detail. And we chose [music] the finest quality at every step. Introducing the future looks bright collection. Not rushed, not disposable, not ordinary, rather intentional, luxurious, timeless.