269 When it's quiet in the therapy room, is anything actually happening?

Hello everybody. It's the therapy show back again for session number 269 with myself Simon Bailey and the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook. >> Thank you very much Simon and welcome. >> Um the subject today is um when it's quiet in the therapy room is anything actually happening? >> Wow. >> subject. >> Interesting subject area. Now for somebody who chatters a lot generally I have I have to train myself around Simon. So anyway, I I thought well I thought I'll just I don't often do this. I don't know what it's spurred on by but just the title was I have a lot of thoughts about it. I'll see what Mr. Google says. >> Okay. >> So I went onto my phone just before and I said it's came up with some reasons why silence can be therapeutic. Number one. It gives space to think and feel. A client may need a few moments to notice what they're actually experiencing rather than immediately having to find words. That's interesting. I mean I've always thought that that one of the positives of silence that it's it allows clients to process. Because often quite often with therapists they they may feel overwhelmed. Or if there's somebody who's always been defined in their history then they may adapt and just be quiet or they may just answer back quickly. But as a therapist I've always thought one of the benefits of silence, not too much silence by the way is to allow somebody to have space to feel and think and experience uh rather rather than sort of um die in the world of being overwhelmed. So it's interesting that it came came up number one for Mr. Google. >> Okay. >> It gives space for clients to think and feel. >> Okay. I think there's lots there's there isn't one kind of silence. I think there's different kinds of silence. >> Oh. >> There's there's that processing silence that you were talking about there. The processing silence. There's a defensive silence kind of hesitation and closing down. Um there's an anxiety silence. >> Oh. >> I'm being judged. What do I do next? So there's different I think there's different kinds of silences. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But the point is that you know, you can't not communicate and silence is not an absence of communication, is it? >> Well, depends how you look at it. Always like I mean, I was going I can give some more things from Mr. Google like um it you know, silence often means the client may might feel accepted and he's got quite a lot of therapeutic parts of silence. But you're quite right, there's different types of silence. Um I always uh you know, I never like silence to go on long. I think it can I can think it can be quite punishing. Or can be experienced like that. And especially with clients who have had histories of neglect, for example. Uh so it's a treatment of neglect. Clients who've um been has had an abusive history where they couldn't really ever be themselves. So there's many reasons why I think silence I don't want to go on too long. Yeah, and the therapist I know have completely different views of of of of silence and they I know somebody I can think of them now who would I can hear them saying, "Oh Bob, I would I would like the silence to go on for 55 minutes." So you know, I wouldn't. Um and I think it's you're right, there's different types of silences um, in the whole process. But one reason the silence I do like to think about, it gives time for deeper material to emerge. That processing. Mhm. And and what I call closer silence then. >> Yeah. Well, no. Well, there's there's there's two There's You talk about the the deeper the processing, the processing of the of what's going on in the client, but also the process the deepening of the relationship. Because if you can trust me in silence, then you trust me. >> Mhm. I agree. And um, I was never a fan though of allowing silence to just continue. >> I I just think that's um, a waste It's wasteful. It's disrespectful. It's It's missing the client. >> Yeah, I never think that In all our conversations and podcasts, I don't think there's ever right and wrongs. I think there's difference in silent, difference in style. And I can think of another colleague of mine who would say, "Oh, Bob, you know, I think for you to just step in uh, and end the silence is um, disrespectful to somebody who's processing or who uh, x x x x." And they I know I I can think who it is now. Who say, "I would just like the silence go on and it it it it helps the it promotes uh, somebody's dignity. It promotes respect. It promotes um, them having chance to to Oh, sorry. To through speaking or whatever it is, may feel empowered in a way they never felt before. At the early analysts, they really promoted silence. Mhm. And then they I interpret the silence. Now, what in it's in really interesting the world of relational psychotherapy, of course. Um because if we're looking at um relationship being the road towards cure then there's a word for there's a word when you talk about silence, I'd like to never bring another word into this called and it's a huge word and it came around in the 1990s this word. Intersubjectivity. Okay. Both you and I know what that means. >> Would you like to explain what you mean? >> What that means what's going on between the therapist and the client. And what that means in that space between the therapist and the client. Yeah, the therapist might be breaking the silence because they're not comfortable with it. So you have there's the therapist countertransference. >> Indeed, therapist supervisees in the early on in their career they'll profess to being uncomfortable with silence. >> Yes, the silence is just as can be just as problematic in a counter transference sense for the therapist as for the client. >> But okay, countertransference countertransference, where does that occur if it's not in the silence? >> Oh. I think oh, all over the place. Our own histories determine our countertransference. >> Uh yes, but it it it occurs doesn't occur when I'm talking to you or what it occurs when when I'm silent, doesn't it? >> No, no, no. >> Do you not think so? >> I No, no, not at all. I think well, from my perspective anyway, I think I can be both triggered by people who talk a lot. I can be triggered by people who analyze a lot. I can be triggered by people who define and define particularly. Um so in fact, I'm more triggered by people who are out of silence. >> Okay. >> Not necessarily silence. In fact, uh would I be triggered by silence? I'm talking about personally rather than professionally here, but they go together. I'm more likely to be triggered by the opposite. >> Okay. >> By people who are defining, by people who are analyzing, by people who are being the expert, by the people who are closing me down, by the people who don't allow me to have my own silence in my withdrawal. >> Okay. >> That's where I'll get triggered. I mean, I know some people get triggered by silence. And I think we all have our own triggers according to our own scripts in TA. Yeah, scripts like plan, our templates if you like. And I know, and you probably know as a supervisor, many therapists do get triggered by what's happening in silence. And particularly one of the driving mechanisms for, especially early therapists, is that if there's silence in the room, the early therapists think they need to resolve it. >> Do something. >> Or jump something. And TA, we know of that do something something game. Um or I'm only trying to help or whatever it is. And they'll often jump into the silence because they want to do something. And I think that's a very common transference position. So, there we have it. And so therefore, uh and especially if you're person-centered trained, by the way, I'm sure in their training they talk a lot about silence and stepping back and and you know, allowing the client's own inner world to emerge rather than stepping in. So, you know, uh contracts and probably be a not particularly uh welcome way of thinking in in a lot of different types of psychotherapists because um the therapist might be leading the contract. So, it's the same with silence. I think it's a very fine balance. Uh I would have pulled people if they're listening to this and struggling with silence anyway, is take it to supervision. >> Mhm. >> Rather than the stepping in. >> A client's uncom- discomfort with silence with silence. And >> I think clients one of the biggest things for clients I know you're often problematic is silence. Because they don't know what to do. >> That's right. >> They don't know what to say. They don't know how to get it right or don't know how to get it wrong. And particularly if you've got a treatment neglect. Um I mean what I often do in silence by the way and I think because I've got more experience I've thought about the timing of this sentence is to ask them what's going on. >> Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. >> long you wait to see I always learned if somebody says to me, you know, what's the qualities that of psychotherapist that makes a really effective psychotherapist, you know. Humor is one of them, but another really big one is timing. The timing of the transaction. >> Why I say you don't wait for 50 minutes before you ask the question. >> Well, somebody might believe >> you in you you you exercise your curiosity, inquiry. >> Yeah. Yeah, you're on the same page as me. And the timing of that is crucial. Because they may experience this their impact on the client might be they might feel overwhelmed. >> And lone- loneliness. >> By that phenomenological inquiry or that. And you might be thinking I don't want this silence to go on. I'm going to step in and cure this spontaneous and all those other things. However, the person on the other side So, it's a very fine balance. I I It's a very tricky one. >> Mhm. The other side of that is is when clients are more are in mourning and grief and Mhm. they need that that silence. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And it's very difficult to then come in and and disturb that. And you can usually see there will be a change when they're in their face, when their body, when they're ready to to come back. >> Mhm. Mhm. I would think I might be incorrect about this, but there's probably more chapters in psychotherapy books or psychoanalytical books or psychodynamic books on the use of silence than probably any other subject. >> Do you think so? >> Yeah, I do. Because I tell you why I think that. Because of the land of countertransference Yeah, you know, the use of transference in the service of the client is is You know, it's easy to just say that, but it's like how do you do it? How do you think about it? When do you come in? When don't you come in? What's going on with the client? So, there is so much written about it in different chapters, from different ways of thinking. Psychodynamic way of thinking, client-centered think ways of thinking, transactional analysis way of thinking, relational ways of thinking, CBT, existential thinking. They all all have a lot to say about uh silence. Alvin Yeah, Alvin wrote a whole book on it, this. Um so, >> Which one was that, Bob? >> Oh, I can't remember the title. He did so many. I was thinking it's not Staring into the Sun, because that's on anxiety, isn't it? But I know he has a lot to say about it. Um and he's an existential psychotherapist. >> Mhm. >> I I think timing is the key, Simon. As I I And as as well as deep thought about when to step in. And you're right, if we're talking about bereavement, then I certainly think that's another whole story about needing time for experience. I mean, what do you think about silence and to you, what's your sort of meanderings about that? >> What do I think about it? I think it's part of the process. >> Yeah, I know, I mean in terms of clinical interventions, in terms of how you may or may not use silence or whether you thinks I just wonder what your >> Well, in terms of clinical interventions, if if the client is regressing, there's inevitably going to be silence. If the client is processing, emotionally processing, >> No, I don't agree with you. >> Do you not? >> No. But it doesn't mean because somebody regresses that there'll be silence. >> Oh, well, okay. All right. Yeah. >> Seriously, my daughter >> In In that In that state of regression, yeah. >> And she'll go back to developmental stage of hysteria. So, I don't think necessarily when people regress, do they go into silent withdrawal state? They might not at all. Depends on the developmental um deficit as at that particular time. I think they might do. They might do. Might they? Certainly go to a withdrawn, maybe place, but and they might not. Now, are they more likely to go to a withdrawn quiet place? >> Well, okay, maybe >> language is around? >> Yeah. Maybe. >> But you don't think it's necessary that way, is it? >> Uh I'm just thinking about and how we thinking about how do we how do we promote the regression when we want to work with it? >> That's a different podcast, isn't it? >> That's it, probably is. >> Now, would you use silence to promote regression? that's a very interesting one. Yes, you might well because uh people find silence so triggering. They may well move to their child ego state. I've mostly thought about it that way. I've thought about and written about many different ways to get the person child ego state or their unconscious phenomena. But I've never written about and I've never thought about it actually until you mentioned it, Simon, that using silence as a method. That's really interesting. >> Other areas, um I'm quite comfortable with silence in the way that I just feel comfortable with the client. And that I feel honored that the client feels comfortable with me in that space of place of silence. >> Mhm. So, how long I don't know if you have any >> How long does that do I would I let it go on for? It that's impossible to say. Um it might feel like 5 minutes, but it's only 90 seconds or something. It's impossible to say when you're in a state like that. >> I think you're correct. I think Another one of my famous sayings coming up here, Simon. I feel it it's absolutely probably psychological time and real time aren't the same things. >> Yeah. >> So, that's actually what I I mean. I feel like 10 minutes, 20 minutes might only be in real time 3 minutes. They're not the same thing. >> Mhm. >> So, yeah, I believe that's basically what I mean. >> You do a lot of work, as we've said, we've talked in other previous podcasts about working in Slovenia, in Serbia, in Russians, and >> Yeah. >> Do they have a different attitude to silence? Because there's a strong cultural element. >> Right. I think it is very important >> toleration of silence or the meaning of silence. >> Yeah, yeah. So, there's certainly a cultural way of thinking. So, I do tend to think thinking what I'm saying and I don't work in Italy much but in Moscow, Russia particularly I was thinking I don't work that much really there though I do conferences and things like that my therapy intensive more likely to be in Croatia or Ljubljana. I do think about the cultural uh norms. I've never um What's the word? I've never written about it but I I do believe there's a cultural pressure here and that's um That's why and again my timing has to be spot on. I would ask what's happening for you because you are right culturally. There might be more of a >> So as I mentioned before I've worked in Japan not as a therapist but I I've worked there for a long time and I know that silence is given much more reverence than it is here. Um it's associated with respect and wisdom and people are more comfortable. >> Yeah. >> Equally I've working in in Manchester fairly big city um I've had clients from from India, Lebanon, Venezuela, Ecuador uh West Africa and their tolerance of silence I sense is different. I don't know but I sense >> I think there's bound to be a cultural part of all this. Definitely. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Without a doubt. I think it's an important thing to consider and I think in training and writing about this um I do think it's an important thing to consider. As is neurodiversity. >> Well, okay. What which is something we talked about with uh with Amy the other week. I don't know if we talked about silence per se. Maybe we'll we will in the next one. What do you mean? >> Well, my daughter and myself, let's speak for myself. Um, I was never diagnosed by having intense ADHD for example. >> Mhm. >> And a lot of the work about that is you're always a multitasking going from one conversation to another sense You find it difficult quite often to emotionally regulate. So, silence is more perhaps more problematic for certain aspects of the neurodiversity world. Autism for example. When I think of working people autistic in silence there. And so, when we think of the different tribes of neurodiversity then that's another thing to consider when we're thinking about silence. I don't know if anything's been written about that, but I certainly think about it like that. >> Well, maybe I'll ask Amy the next time. >> Be a good question. A really good question. Are you talking to her again soon? >> Yeah, we've got we're talk I think it's next next week I think we'll be talking. >> I know there's somebody wants to talk about family constellations. And I know Steph was thinking about talking about something as well. So, I'll I'll pass them on to you. >> Okay. >> But I find this really interesting. >> I find this an interesting subject. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do think timing is the key. And when you say, "Oh, what's happening for you then?" >> Inquiry. >> Mhm. >> Silence and the inquiry. >> Mhm. >> Acknowledging the silence and then >> Mhm. And also, if you think developmentally uh, in your inquiring you might say, "Oh, what did silence mean for you when you were a kid? Was it a place of solace, for example, where you could go to your bedroom or a your safe space where when all the things might have been happening around you? Or you know, so I think developmentally it's an important line of inquiry. I was talking to somebody again on assessment recently and she was talking about how she was the mediator and her parents, um, when they split up they were before they were always arguing. She was the mediator because if she wasn't the mediator, she was in World War III. And so at home in World War III. In other words, if she didn't mediate, the whole thing kicked off. >> Okay. >> So she was always living in that world of trying to get some peace and silence with it. And that's So I think the thing developmentally and what that all means in their history and how it could be played out in relationships today is also another whole story. >> But essentially what you're saying is that it's it's important for us as therapists to understand what the silence means for the client. >> Developmentally >> Both developmentally, culturally, individually, all these things. So psychologically, yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because without that we're I don't think we're um, doing our job. And more than anything else, I think there's a counter-transferential process to look at here. Because so many therapists are unhappy with silence that they rush in and try to prematurely resolve things. That's often a thing that I uh, reflect on in supervision with the trainee. >> We have to, um, we >> to do something. We have to be seen to be doing something. >> And they were And also from their own ego. Yeah, because they want to be the best therapist. >> Yeah. >> They want to do it right. They want to cure their clients. They want to help them. And so they're often rushing or may rush in prematurely. Um and then they miss the moment of cure or the moment of insight. >> Or the moment of vulnerability, the cusp of understanding. >> Very much so. >> Yeah. >> Very much so. The moment of vulnerability is a good one. Um way to put it. >> I think we've come to the end of this episode. Is that all right? >> Yeah, do you want a moment of silence before we stop? >> I was going to ask you. [laughter] I will go away and I'll give my myself my own moment of silence. >> [laughter] >> I just thought I just thought I would I know another therapist, by the way. This is why therapists do all different things, Simon. Do you wish I was a I was a group psychotherapist for 36 years, as you know. As you always started her therapeutic groups off with a moment of silence. Always. I always started my therapeutic groups off off up with bragging, a bragging session. And they're so different. One is a moment of silence and the other one is a moment of bragging. >> Would you like to brag? Would you like to brag before we go? >> No, I mean asking the clients to say something positive about them, yeah, what else has happened during the week. That's what I meant by bragging. >> Yeah. >> Whereas I I do that for 36 years and yet there's other therapists I just might say we're different. She had a moment of at least 2 minutes of silence so they could get to a contemplative you know, uh state before they started to work. >> I think that's so good. >> It encompasses a half an hour encompasses. >> How often it's it's great going for doctor's appointments or dentist appointments or opticians and arriving there 10 minutes too early just to give yourself 10 minutes of silence. Oh, people fill it with phones these days, but just to give yourself a few minutes of >> [sighs] >> a bit of relaxing. >> Do you like that space? >> Do you like that? >> I do. I do. This balance saying 2 or 3 minutes of silence before the group starts. >> Mhm. I think it's good. Yeah. >> Well, there you are. There's another thing to put in your book. >> I shall. I shall be writing a book. >> Tips and tricks of a seasoned psychotherapist. >> What I'd learned on my journey. What I've learned on my ride on my roller coaster. >> Yeah, what a wonderful title of a book. It wasn't through Ronan Keating who had that famous song which was life is a roller coaster or something like that. It went to number one. >> Um I'm a little bit too old. I think I'm too old for that. >> [laughter] >> Ronan Keating. >> But no, I think she's got I mean, she saw it by and she always liked it and I know I know there's a space for that and but no, I never changed to that, but I did this positive what I call barking for 5 minutes. Well, 3 minutes. Now, some clients moan about that because they want to get on with the work and there was always fighting around time. So, maybe they would silence as well. I don't know. >> On that note, we will we will shut up. And [laughter] um >> And what do we got next week in our >> Well, well, next week is is is Amy, I think. And the week after me and you, um I think we're going to talk about let me just get this up on the screen here. Um what role what role does compassion and kindness play in the therapy room with regards to effective healing? >> What a wonderful topic. Can't wait. >> Can't wait. Okay. Thank you very much, Bob. >> Take care. >> And thank you everybody for listening and any comments in the box below. Um and um we'll see you um in a we will see you in a couple weeks. Thanks. >> got Amy next week, yeah? >> Yeah, we've got Amy Amy and myself. Yeah. >> Talking about neurodiversity, yeah? >> Um common problems that we make common common mistakes that we make working with neurodivergent clients. >> Really interesting. I'll listen to that. >> Good. >> [snorts] >> Bye everybody. Bye-bye. >> You've been listening to The Therapy Show Behind Closed Doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe [music] and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.