265 Does Age Difference make any difference in the Relationship between Client and Therapist?

Welcome everybody to episode number 265 of the Therapy Show. Um there's myself, Simon Bailey, and the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook. >> Thank you. >> Um today's subject is one that actually was suggested by uh one of our viewers, listeners in France, Cla. Um the subject is does age difference make any difference to the relationship between client and therapist? >> Very interesting subject. I was just thinking I don't thank you for calling wonderful B cook but I don't always feel that wonderful. I was just thinking I was just thinking to you it's because you asked earlier on offcreen it's because I went for a went to go and have a cataract procedure and when I got there they said I was in it was actually a gluccom uh process so I sort of got myself all sort of geared up for this cataract operation which never happened. I think that's why I feel a bit sort of uh down a little bit but no back to the subject. What a wonderful wonderful title there. So I I I I have a lot to talk about with that because I think it really I think there's a lot of written on it a lot of research um and especially from the psychoanalytical and psycho dynamic world and also from the relational world but I'm going to start with an interesting fact. Well I found it was strange when I was 35 and I decided I wanted to train in psychotherapy. uh the institute I went to was one of the only really institutes back in the wild west of 1985 uh the one of the first psychotherapy institutes in training and that was a metaninoa psychotherapy training institute where I first started my journey of training. >> Okay. Yeah. And I always remember I um I got on the milk train from Manchester and I got to um Eling where the met where metanino started its life and I got to the door and there was a there was a um piece of saying TA TA course down here. So I opened the door went down the basement and then found this room saying TA people. So I opened up and I went in. Wow. It was such a big room, about 26 people. >> Mhm. >> And um besides there being very few men, by the way, uh no one under 35. And back in those days, well, I'm talking about way back age, you didn't age was an actual um was that a criteria, but but I think it was a criteria. You had to be you being younger than sort of mid30s perhaps. I don't know if you get well you might get on the training but it was often me mentioned it was important to be to sort of have a maturity of life to be able to train as a psychotherapist back then. Now that's not how it is viewed today but it's interesting that I was the youngest in the training group >> y >> training to be a psychotherapist. So age was back then thought about in terms of you know you need to have a maturative life to be a perhaps train as a psychotherapist or be a successful therapist I never really thought about it much. Um but when I was looking and thinking about this podcast um I I realized how how things had all changed. And of course in our own training over the years we've accepted people much much younger than 35. Um and I think there's a big difference in the criteria of training from really right at the beginning of psychotherapy training and now. So I just want to start off that because I think it's interesting >> okay >> how how in today's psychotherapy training institutes and centers it actually is not a consideration. You know, it's the reverse in many ways. People are now thinking when they come out of university, could it be a feasible career, for example? >> Well, the there are courses at university these days, aren't there? >> Yes. A completely different sort of it's a cultural shift. >> Yeah. >> But back so I just want to start but back >> but I al sorry to just to interrupt you Bob. There's also there's a shift in the the demographics of the cleonel as well, the client group. It's it's much younger. >> People are much more aware of their own mental health and and difficulties. So, it's it there's also um mental health um focuses in schools and colleges in the way that there wasn't. You're talking about what the 80s the '7s >> 84 85 >> 84 right so just as there's a difference in there differences in ages with in in in terms of the delivery there's also difference age in differences in ages in the in in the demographics in the client group. >> Yes you're correct and that's certainly um as you say that I was thinking of I do a lot of the assessments and that's certainly true. Absolutely. Um, so I go let's go back a little bit though and talk about something we have to talk about. We're talking about age and what age means, you know, real age, psychological age. >> Yeah. >> Um, and there's a lot written about in terms of transference. >> Oh, I wondered if we'd get on to that word. And that's the major you there's a lot of written anyway but um in the psychoanalytical and psychonamic world particularly there's a lot written and um about both ways the projection of the client onto the therapist in terms of yeah a significant other person whether it be grandfather whether it be father, whether it be a father they didn't have, whether it be a brother, whether it be a sibling, you know, the projection onto the >> That's right. >> the the the um therapist is the way they look at it and also they talk a lot about counter transference. >> That's right. Yeah. >> And the therapist's actual position and um what they would project onto the client in terms of Yeah. brothers, sisters, younger u brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, and how from transactionalist point of view, how they often are then in the parent role or the projections in the pair role, but actually by being in the parental role, they often may infantilize the client in front of them. >> Okay, >> so there's a lot written in that that world. And um I went a step further and I looked at articles and review papers and if anybody's interested in the subject just put that put transference age does it matter what does it all mean in the psychotherapy and you're going to get a lot of books and a lot of articles search so I did that and I was interested in um that I went to Mr. Google chat chat what is it chat GB or something and they came with lots of really good uh articles which you can look at yourself um actually I'll let you do that rather than me looking it all on my Google Mr. Google for um so that's interesting and we it's interesting we're both you I'm 75 and you're 67 so the transferences both ways I think has a large part to play in treatment when I was doing some thinking about this I sort of split it up into into three areas and the first was expectations in fact the choice of therap before the therapy even starts and the choice of a therapist. >> So, do I want an older person? Do I want a Do I mind? Is it is it relevant? >> Do I do I want a male? Do I want a a woman? Do I want somebody who's had the same kind of lived experience as me? Whatever that might be, or do I want an older an older person? M >> and then I've looked at it in terms of as you say the counter transference working for us working with older clients and working with younger clients >> and the kind of things that that that we would encounter and as you say in TA we we we can readily kind of label those as as the parental side the the the the in the parent adult child we are taking on a role or acting in a parent role for younger younger clients. Um or we will have that parent role projected onto us by those >> younger clients. >> Totally. >> So um yeah, it's a it's a big area. So um leaving that we'll leave aside the the the the prior before therapy side the choosing the the therapist and go on to the the transference and counter transference. Um >> do you experience that yourself much? >> Do I experience that? Yes, of course I do. >> Yes. Yes. Um I'm as you say I'm in my late 60s. I don't have many clients older than me. Um, but I do have a few. I do have some. >> Um, they uh I would imagine they choose me. Well, we're working in private practice, remember? So, clients can choose their their theirrapist. Uh, they choose me because um I'm closer to their age than anybody else. Mhm. >> Equally, I get younger people who will perhaps see my profile online and look at me and think, well, here's somebody who's got what's that word you use? Gravitas. >> Bit of gravitas, bit of authority. >> And then in the room, we start to um uh we play out those those games of transference and counter transference. Uh, I've just got that you've got that glazed look in your eye, Bob. [snorts] >> No, I was agreeing with you. That's how I see it. >> Absolutely. I think of the advantages and disadvantages of that transferential process. >> Well, what are they before we talk about the advantages and disadvantages? Well, I think uh if they're going to put an idolized significant other person onto you, you cannot, you know, that means that maybe their history from a developmental perspective, there was trauma or relational needs won't be met. So, you might step into the transference >> and try and what and try and solve and try and fix. >> No, neither of those things. No, >> I I was thinking in the Well, I was thinking the service of reparative therapy. >> Okay. I suppose you know you might want to use the word repair in that way. So they can uh so there may be some relational needs being met in a reparative way if you step into it. So that would be one positive way of using that. >> Indeed. Yeah. A very big negative though would be that the the uh client may especially if they're younger uh feel that they need to protect the therapist or the grandfather figure or whoever >> and therefore won't actually um take ownership of their real self because they might think might hurt the therapist for example. So they might move into some protective process. >> Okay. >> So they find might find it hard to be themselves because they're taking care of the grandfather, the figure, or whoever it is. >> I think it works both ways. >> Mhm. Have you ever been have you ever had the case where you've you felt as if you're dealing with a well a younger version of yourself? >> Oh yeah. I think that's common, isn't it? >> Yeah, that's quite common. >> Yeah. So uh and and that that might be uh that will be you know counter transference and >> that's right >> what that then means so psychoanalytical and psychonamic therapists I think they're not so much interested in the physical age they're interested in the real age um and of course from another point of view altogether um therapists may have ages you know which are very different from their psychological age. So yeah there I would imagine there's youthful aspects of yourself like there's youthful aspects of myself which is very different from my perhaps 75year-old. >> Mhm. So I think it's I think they're much more about the real self and the real age um the psychoanalysts and psyched people but I think mainly they they think about transference and developmental needs and think about it that way much more >> and and so we're looking at the the positive aspects and the negative aspects of >> of that >> process >> process. Okay. and the positive ones. Are we talking about transference or counter transference here? >> Either. >> Either. So, [sighs] [gasps] so we talk about the the the nurturing parent, the the reparative parent, but there's also >> want to Yeah. >> Sorry. >> You might want to look at it that way. >> Yeah. But there's also my what I said said there was that being drawn into a game to fix fix this client. >> You think about it in terms of that wonderful way of analyzing games the cartman triangle. >> Yeah. >> Rescue a persecution victim and there might be a seduction to get a person onto that triangle therapist. I mean yes. Um, and I think it's good because games are part of transference. So, if we're going to work with the transference, then we'll then'll be aware of those behavioral game decisions and we may then go from a different place. M >> one of one thing that was very almost universally mentioned in the literature and North Cross I think it is in 1992 uh talking about this but many other people uh and lots of the research show this the far more important than age of the therapist or the client is the therapeutic relationship. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And that crops up everywhere you read about >> Yeah. far more important than age you know empathy warmth um so that's an interesting thing but again I see that in it is I believe that and also I also do think a lot about transference when I'm with a younger person for example counter transfers and transfers just the other day I had uh somebody came for assessment and she just reminded me my daughter >> okay >> she was She was actually 23. My daughter's 27. But there was that youthfulness, that sort of uh I I was very aware of it. Anyway, now if I taken her on as a therapist, which I didn't because I referred her on, I think that's useful information, I would be aware of my own counter transference and I can use that or think about it and um reflect on it and what does that mean? Because all relationships are co-created. >> Of course. Yeah. >> Her position and my position. >> Yeah. >> Um what about with older clients? I mean we we are relative. We're senior. We are we are older ourselves, >> but you must have had times when you're dealing with older clients. >> Yeah. And have you ever felt you ever felt >> deskkilled or your competence is under question or >> I remember when I was in my 30s and my 40s of course I had loads of loads of clients are older than me. Uh yeah and that brings it own transferences as well doesn't it? M I think I think it's important to be aware of all the transversuses. Now that that demands I think also besides training it demands a lot of your own therapy to be aware of some of the counter transfers. >> Yeah. Well supervision at least. Yes. >> Yeah. Supervision and therapy. And you may I I know from my own aspect of mentors in my own training and therapeutic life um who are older than me and wonderful with powerive therapy. >> Okay. because like I said earlier on I think of one particular person and he's was he's like uh became a a figure a male figure that I never had but and I remember another person another person as well reminded me of my father because of the uh some mannerism also uh the way he sat and color of his eyes and things like that. So I was aware of my own transference. However, vastly different in many many many other ways. So I allow myself to go I'm talking my own therapy here from a reparative point of view. Now as a therapist it's important to stay an adult and and hopefully be aware of your own kind of transference through supervision or in fact therapy if you wish to put it that way. But usually supervision is the first place >> and the kind of games that you can get drawn into in that. >> Yeah. Rescuing being >> but also approval seeking and >> approval seeking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But you're right also seeing if it's younger seeing a younger self uh seeing a daughter all these things. So the problem is you may not see the real person. M I as I think there it's it's compar comparable to having another therapist as a client. >> Wow. Yes. >> And then you begin to question question yourself the imposter feelings and things like that that are equally >> common when in that counter transferal counter transferential relationship with an older client. >> That's right. Yeah. So there is a lot written on it. People want to go and you know put articles just put it into Google and you get a lot on uh a lot written on this subject mainly around transference and counter transfers. >> Um outside the that those areas things like um can the older therapist understand my world view? >> That's a good question. Um, >> and do they want them to >> do they want them to? But I'm thinking about um, you know, I don't know, dealing with the pressures of social media, dealing with uh, the way kids are behave, develop at school is quite different to the way I was brought up. >> Yes. I suppose if you're talking about the therapeutic relationship being vitally important, which I am there and the research shows, um getting into the frame of reference of somebody 30 years younger, especially in all the areas you're talking about, is a different ball game, isn't it? >> And I think it's possible. I have no doubt about that. It's just that there is there resistance from the younger client to to this old guy who's trying to talk about Tik Tok to me or >> Yeah. Yeah. So, my assessments when I'm matching people up, I think about things like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And somebody's about 27, I won't necessarily pass them to somebody who's 67 because I I I also come from the frame of reference that the therapeutic relationships are vitally important. No, you can get some 27 year olds who psychologically are like 40 year olds. >> Yeah. Well, >> yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely. And you get 27 year olds like 19 year olds. >> Mhm. So I do think about frames of reference like you've just talked about here >> and I will attempt to center them somebody >> younger not I'm talking about psycholog you know >> psychological >> fit into their frame of reference >> because you're right somebody who's our sort of age is maybe good in terms of reparative therapy really it's the assessment uh that I go through. Um, but that's one of the things I do think about what you've just talked about. >> Okay. >> In terms of that big sort of gap. Now, they may need grandfather therapy. They might need repetitive therapy from a significant older person. That's something to weigh into the equation. And what you've just talked about in terms of frame of reference is also important. Um many of us don't have someone like you to do that um assessment for them. We receive clients directly from referral agencies or online or uh assigned by the organization that we're working for. Um and it's it's a it can be a minefield. >> Absolutely. I mean, I know you used to do assessments. You used to when you ran your own psychotherapy center or uh co-ran it anyway. Uh you did a lot of the assessments, didn't you? >> I did indeed. >> Yeah. So, I know you know about assessments and um you're right. Yeah. One of the reasons I started up assessment process 20 years ago, whatever it is, is exactly what you're talking about. >> So, there can be some sort of matching up. So the assessment for me is face to face at least 30 minutes where I'm going into many areas not simply you know they're 27 and somebody's 65 but a lot of psychological reasons and what they want from therapy. So there's a lot to take in consideration but one of them is what you've just said just simply their cultural gender. >> Yeah. psychological ages um and what they want from the therapy. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But as I said, most people come don't don't work I think most people don't work in private practice, do they? It's there are they are assigned clients according to the the issue or or or whatever. Well, most most people that I see I pass to private. Well, all people I don't send them to anywhere else. Oh, there might be the odd one I sent to. Yes, there are people specific, but in general, 95% of the people I pass on to people in private practice, >> but if I was say for working at a GP and the the GP G I work at the GP surgery, the GP passes on a client to me. He's [snorts] 19, I'm 68, or vice versa. I'm a 24 year old new graduate and there's a 48-y old guy coming in. There's lots of the things that we're talking about these that that the therapist has to deal with, the counselor has to deal with and not someone in your position, the assessor. >> Yeah. They aren't necessarily matched up. >> Yeah, >> that's right. And I think it's good to think about transference and counter transference then the things we're talking about >> it's good to think about it but it isn't it it it's it doesn't um exclude doesn't preclude somebody >> no >> because as you say at heart the therapeutic alliance is the most >> doesn't preclude anyone at all um I've had people by the way that have come back and said yeah one of the reasons because they wanted to change their therapist was their age of the therapist. >> And is it the age of the therapist or is that >> loads of other reasons and it might be one of them? >> Yeah, it's the most tangible one that they can >> Yeah. >> say >> yeah it's not necessarily the real reason but I have had people come back. >> Okay. Well, I do think about age. I do. And um I think about gender and lots of things, but I think age is something to think about. And it'd be interesting for the listeners to be thinking on in terms of their assessment whether they think about these things and and when they're working with clients who are older or younger, what their counter transits might be or what is projecting onto them. And we all carry biases, don't we? What are our biases about older people? Our biases about >> Yeah. Yeah. I have many. Well, we all have unconscious biases. M >> and I think like many other areas, age, sexism, gender, culture, um I think they're important to to be aware of if we can to take it to supervision. Um and definit Well, that's the best thing, take it to supervision. >> Yeah. But also well and and be aware of what's going on inside you and those those pulls, the way you awareness of the way you sit, awareness of the way you talk to the client, awareness of the way you uh you might you might feel overprotective or indifferent. >> Yeah, somebody very youthful, very bubbly will certainly set things off for me. Simon, I you know, it's like I perhaps the the youthfulness I never had. I'm more energetic and sessions are more lively. All those things. >> Mhm. Mhm. Um I don't know what that would be in my case. I would um I'd just like people to slow down and that's that's >> I'd love you to I'd love you to have somebody who's youthful, energetic, full of energy, full of uh comedic comedy, full of uh all that. I'd love you to have that. >> That's about 25% of my case load. Bob, >> really on purpose? >> No, no, I [laughter] >> I'm joking. I do think it's really interesting because I know that people are very youthful, very bubbly, very energetic. I know my counter transfers around that. >> I know that those sessions are perhaps even more fun for me, perhaps [clears throat] more joyful. I But it's interesting because it's shape can shape the therapy. >> Yeah. somebody's more flat, a bit more elderly perhaps or somebody is more downs then maybe the therapy can be even more down because of my own counter transference. So how I react to younger people is very important and and um I don't I haven't I've taken this this supervision. Your your how would you descri? >> Yeah. Does like you said earlier on in this podcast. Does it remind me of my younger self? >> Yeah. >> For example, or the younger self I never allowed out. >> That's right. Um, so they're all I think like all these subjects we discuss in the podcast really the biggest clue the biggest I think growth is the analysis of our own counter transfers. >> Mhm. Because that's that's the unconscious process that tells us what's going on. Yes, absolutely. That shapes the relationship. >> That shapes the relationship >> or doesn't. >> Yeah. >> And might not because >> we might move into what you said earlier on, by the way, like some sort of expert role, >> right? and and and um because you might want to move away from the discomfortment of whatever has been projected onto you because your own history was um wasn't so fulfilling as a person in front of you or whatever. So it's the analysis of the counter transference which really is very important and in psychonamic psychotherapy that's what they do all the time analyze their own counter transference. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Would you describe as would you describe TA as psychonamic? Well, Eric Burn was a psychoanalyst and he was very obsessed by psych analysis and his first book a layman to psychiatry in 1949. He was really a fian when he wrote that book. And it was um in the from when he wrote that book 4950 to six I would say 59 when he started to develop transaction analysis which he first called ego state therapy and changed to the word transaction analysis uh because he thought psychoanalysis uh was too long and all these things. um and he developed transaction analysis. But his idea of transaction analysis back in those days is nothing like it is now. It was basically around uh getting getting better quicker hopefully in one session >> and strengthening the adult ego state. Wasn't about looking at developmental needs or wasn't looking at the relationship or so it's a different animal. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And TA does come from a psychedic backwards background. My I think it's psychonamic. I don't think it is entirely but I think there's a str very important strand of developmental uh investigation. Yeah. But see I think it's the therapist. In other words, I think it's how it's the therapist style. So you can talk to TA therapists and you can talk to TA therapists. And one of the most important questions I always like a conferences to ask is where did you train? >> Okay? >> Because where they train will determine their style of delivery using the TA model because they may use they might be a TA therapist like Eric B was >> strengthening out a talking about parent child but never going into child not going into developmental relation needs at all. But then you get another therapist TA therapist who train say my place for example who will think very relationally think very developmentally and there we are into the psychonamic world but burn didn't talk about he knew about transference inside out but he didn't talk about transference he talked about it more well he might have done sorry but he talked much more about his new TA which was about strengthening adult not going into some sort of >> you know game positions or transential child positions or you know was very much I think very much uh his TA early TA model very much uh a sort of CBT therapist he would have been >> gosh >> oh yeah because CBT is about staying in the house strengthening the adult all things talked about >> but how it's changed you know the model's not changed but how it's been interpreted how it's been used, the style is like chalk and Jesus now. >> Indeed. Yeah. Yeah. >> Because back because back in the 1960s they never thought about relationship psychotherapy in terms of the relationship being the major change for cure for example. >> Okay. One day we ought to do a program about a session about your the way you've changed the way you work over the four decades you've been working in this. >> Oh, I think it' be a wonderful podcast about how to how how uh therapists you know who have been like myself or yourself how we've changed how Yeah. how we've changed would be wonderful. I don't know what we call the podcast, but I think it'd be really interesting. >> I think we'll we'll come back. >> I I can tell you what's changed me very straightforwardly, therapy. >> Okay. >> I don't I could say it in one sentence, but I could spend half an hour talking about it, of course. >> Yeah. >> Uh but without sort of therapy I've had, I would never become the sort of therapist I am now. >> Okay, we are going to have to end there, Bob. >> Oh, what a shame. I was just getting into it. Okay, we'll come back to this. Um, we will be we you and I will not be meeting next session. The next session will be myself and um Amy Peters uh because she'll be talk telling us about neurode divergence in the therapy room both for the client or and as a the therapist and that will be really interesting. >> Yeah. And she's written extensively on that subject >> I believe. Yes. Yes, she'll be talking about her book as well. >> Yeah, that'll be interesting as well. So, >> so that's the next session as well. >> Yeah. >> Uh so you and I will be together uh the session after which will be I think that's about we'll be talking about the length of time clients spend in therapy. >> Oh yeah. Well, that's another whole story. >> It is indeed. And if you're younger, of course, if you're the age of sort of 26, 27, 23, 22, you may spend a lot more time. But if you're 67, sure the time you're at the front of the queue in terms of mortality, aren't you? >> Well, maybe that's part of the the transferential counterransferential process here. My therapy is too old. >> It's interesting >> indeed. Um, we'll finish there and I'll um I will say goodbye to everybody and we'll we'll meet I'll meet next week and we'll meet in a couple of weeks time. Bob, >> look. >> You've been listening to the Therapy Show Behind Closed Doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe [music] and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode. >> [music]