263 The process model of supervision | The Therapy Show

Hello everybody. Welcome to the latest edition of the therapy show. This is episode 263 and it's with myself Simon Bailey and the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook. >> Thank you. Glad to be here. >> And today the subject Bob is the process model of psychotherapy supervision otherwise known as the seven-eyed model. >> That's right and it's a very popular model. I learned it first of all in 1989. >> Gosh. Long time. >> When his by the actual people who came up with the model which was Robin Shaw and Jean Willmott and also Peter Hawkins. I didn't actually meet Peter Hawkins. I was trained by mainly by Robin Shaw and um it was called back then the six-eyed model but eventually very quickly became known as a seven-eyed model because he put an extra mode on. Um and really it's looking at the process between two relationships in supervision. And that is the relationship between the supervisor and the supervisee and the relationship between the therapist and the client and how they overlap. So that's why it's called a process model. And you can also see it as a model um which helps you sort of uh chart the grid of supervision and where you are in the supervision process. >> Is there any reason you chose that particular model? >> Oh, what I wanted to do a certificate in supervision with Robin Shaw back then. Back then. Was it a diploma? No, I think it was and and of course they just come up with that model. >> Okay. >> They taught that one primarily because it was their own. But they taught us a a about definitions of supervision and what supervision is. But, I think they did Well, they just take they just, you know, caught that model, so that's the one they wanted to use. I mean, I went on to learn later on many models, but I like this one the most because it gives a good grid of where the supervisor is with their client, sorry, the supervisee like in supervision cuz there's seven layers to it or seven modes. And um I like the idea looking at how the two relationships, the supervisor and the supervisee, may overlap bilaterally, by the way, with the therapist and the client. >> And it's a it's a much more relational model. >> Mhm. >> Much more focused on those relationships, the different relationships, rather than a procedural model um that's focused on technique and >> Mhm. >> This is >> Yeah, I think it's very relational. And um I I enjoyed it a lot and that's why it's the central model that I teach in the 12 my certificate of supervision. And >> I think you must have taught that half half the therapists in Manchester with you. >> Well, been teaching that certificate for 30-odd years and many people come from all over place and lot come from Manchester. And uh I think it's a very effective model. People listening hopefully will find it interesting and maybe if they're thinking of going into the world of supervision, they uh will find it a useful model and it will may give them some insights to uh their own supervisors' model if they've got one with themselves. So, hopefully it fits a lot of boxes for people listening. >> Mhm. >> I know I I know you know the model as well. >> I do. I did cuz I did my training with you >> Yeah, it was some time >> years ago, I think. >> Do you like it? >> Um I do. Um I find uh I I work I my supervisees many are students. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so we're kind of focus more on the the the the relationship between the the supervisee and the client, me and the supervisee, and the technique, the process. And the other ones kind of um become more and more more pertinent, more relevant further down as the as the the therapist, the counselor becomes more experienced. >> Yeah. >> Is that right? >> Uh yes and no. >> Okay. >> I understand what you're saying. Um, if I just go quickly through the model >> That would be good. >> talk about it. Um, so as I said, what I like about it is the process between two relationships particularly. And that's the relationship between the therapist and the client and the relationship between the supervisor and supervisee, which of course is the therapist. You know, the therapist who's with the client then brings their unfinished business or what they're stuck in or what they want to learn from to their supervisor. And it can often invade the relationship. I'll go on with that more. But so you've got two relationships and sometimes there's a process and overlap between the two of them. So I like that concept. And I like the concept uh which I'm going to talk about in a minute is about the seven levels within this whole supervisory map. >> Mhm. >> Now, I often call them modes. So, let's start off with the first mode um and then I can work through. So, the first mode, if you like, on their sort of grid or their map of supervision is what they call mode one. >> Mhm. >> level one, but I'm calling them modes. Um and from that place, it's it's an examination of the you know, the therapist and the client particularly. So, uh you could say the focus of that mode is very much looking at what happens in the session between the therapist and the client from two places. One, the content. >> Mhm. >> And the sounds of the content that that goes through the sessions. And secondly, what actually happens in the sessions from a say a a behavioral place. >> Okay. >> You know, how they sitting, you know, what sort of clothes are they wearing when they come in. Are they agitated? What's happening at the internal level? Because what happens uh externally through behavior is a manifestation of what's happening internally. So, by looking or thinking about agitation, or thinking about solitude, or thinking about silence, or thinking about what they're wearing, or whatever, we think behaviorally may gave us some clues onto what's happening internally in the sessions between the therapist and the client. So, that's what the focus is on that mode is. So, an example of that would be if we look at it from a behavioral place, uh when you meet with the client for the first time as a therapist, you know, what were they dressed in? >> Yeah. >> Clothes were they dressed in? What sort of image did you have when you first met them? Were they somebody who just walked, you know, rushed energetically into the you know, you know, through the front door, or were they ones which were quite passive, or did they, you know, all that behavioral observational stuff, which if usually counselors and trainers learn very early in training, and they don't necessarily come back to. I mean, as TA therapists you do, because you're thinking about what ego state is doing. Um but that this mode I really quite like because it's concentrating on what's happening in the session between the therapist and the client particularly. So, the client's the star of all this lot. And also looking at what's the content throughout the sessions or themes if you like >> Mhm. >> which the client brings. So, when you go to supervision the star becomes Sorry, the client becomes the star of who what you bring to supervision. Not contracts, not parallel processes, not transference, not uh treatment planning, not anything else. But particularly looking at how the client presented and what they bring it becomes the central focus in that mode. >> Okay. >> And I like that because quite often uh my own experience is the same, by the way. Is that um when I have supervisors supervision, there's a lot of conversation about transference and countertransference and parallel obligations and parallel processes and you know, and uh there may not be much that I bring in where the client becomes the star of the whole show. So, I'm thinking that is very true I think in many supervisions. They don't talk enough about well, how were they energetically in the room versus the client? What did they bring? You know, that's not necessarily the focus. So, I like that mode. I mean, I don't know as a supervisor whether you um the focus of much you use that focus that mode particularly where the um um the client becomes the star. >> Well, the the next mode that you're going to talk about is the the the interventions, the the processes, the therapeutic Yes, the therapy itself. And I often find that when supervisees come in, that's where they focus. >> Mhm. >> Here I've got to I'm my my work is being on display here. And they're forgetting that there is the client. >> Yes, that's why I like mode one. >> That's why Yes, and that's why I bring them back to that Okay, what do they look like? What do they sound like? What's their background, their education, their all those factors. >> Mhm. >> So that the client becomes a real person. >> That's a very good way Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. So because the client comes into the room as a real person. >> Yes. >> Under this mode. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So I think it's an important mode. >> Yeah. >> Um quite often as I say, psychodynamic supervisors, for example, they will solely concent- concentrate exclusively on the countertransference. >> Yeah. >> supervisions supervisor would never do this. Because they'd be concentrating on when we get to it, mode four. >> Right. >> Always. Full stop. And you know, I think a lot of people lot of supervisors do concentrate on uh interventions, contracts, treatment planning. And I think Robin Shohet says in his book in one of his chapters in their research that um quite many uh supervisors may focus on that solely on what on that mode. I mean, I I understand that and I think if you solely fo- focus on that one mode, you're missing a lot. >> Mhm. >> It's the same with the transfers. If you're just going to always focus on the counter transfers, you're missing a lot of other things. So, I like the focus of mode what they call mode one out of the seven because what the way you've just put it, bringing a real person into the room. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So, okay. So, let's go on to mode two. We've done mode one. And it's the mode that you were talking about, >> Mhm. >> um Simon. So, the focus is on interventions and on contracts and treatment planning and how can we do this and did that lead to that and very much on looking at, you know, schizoid paranoid or whatever the diagnosis is and that's all in mode two. And that's what you're talking about, isn't it? >> That's right. Yeah. >> Yeah. And you Did you say you use that mode a lot? >> Um at the beginning, yeah. Uh that's what where people worry. They Am I doing it right? What can I do? This person is this. I'm stuck with that. What can I do? What can I do? >> Well, beginning therapist and quite even more seasoned therapists, but certainly beginning therapists, uh will worry about that. Am I doing things wrong or right and those sides. So, I can see how that would lend itself to mode two. Um So, I I mean, I like mode two and I think in the book by Robin and Showers about this mode called Supervision in the Helping Professions, he gives an example of um through the research that quite a lot of people use this uh mode perhaps more than others. And um he talks about one supervisor who uses this mode to exclusively. I mean, I know psychodynamic supervisors tend to use mode four exclusively. So, uh but I think if you're just going to use one of these dimensions or modes or focuses, uh you miss a lot in my view. >> Mhm. >> I know this is an integrated model, so you don't It's not like you go from mode one to mode two to mode three to mode four. You You go where you go with the supervisee. And then you'll go to whatever mode you go to. But the the important thing is that you can map where you've got. >> Okay. >> Uh and you can talk about it with your supervisees in terms of where we're in this focus or we're in that focus. But it's a it's an integrated model in the sense that you'll go where the supervisee goes. But you have to know what If you're going to talk about it in these terms, it's good to be able to talk about um the process so you both yourself and the supervisee, perhaps, will know where you've been where you are at in the supervision. >> Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me there is an excellent book called How to Be a Good Supervisee. >> Oh, right. Is there? >> There is. I could tell you the name of the author if you >> I've never heard of that. So, that's >> What's it? Um >> Is it by Bob Cook? >> Uh No, it's not. Um No, I can't have it I can't find it at the moment. I'll maybe put it in the Uh because again, it's like when when people come for therapy, they don't know Oh, how do I do this? What's going to happen? >> Yeah. So, >> When people come for supervision, they don't know what I'm going to talk about uh >> Yeah, there's a That's right. So, I often tell teach my supervisees this model. Good. So, we have a shared language. >> Yeah. >> I mean, a really good books I know is by Michael Carroll and Maria Gilbert, who passed away sadly. He was my supervisor and trainer for a while. Um and Michael Carroll was really really well known in supervision. Well, they they they wrote it about 10 years ago, which I really like, called Being a Supervisor. Um But back to this model. So, that's that's mode two, and that's the focus there on our map of supervision. Now, the next two modes, three and four, uh really we're now moving into examining the relationship between the therapist and the client. So, we're moving into a systemic approach. >> Mhm. >> We're moving to looking at the system. >> Yeah. >> Um and that means we're looking at the transference and the countertransference. So, in other words, mode three, the focus would be more on who is the therapist for the client. You know, what is the projection of the client onto the therapist? That's what I mean. And mode four would be the countertransference of the therapist, and that would be who is the client for me? You know, in terms of their own my younger selves, do they remind me of a sister, brother, whoever they might, or do they remind me of a hopeless part of myself, or whatever. But that would be the countertransference. >> Yes. >> So, that that that would be in those two modes, three and four, it would be an examination of the transference between the two of them. That's what I mean by systemic. >> Yes. >> Now, as I said earlier on, um psychodynamic supervisors will probably um almost exclusively um be looking at the countertransference. So, they're very different focuses. So, from two and one. >> Yes. Do you look at counter transfers much and transfers much in your supervisory uh position? >> Uh when it crops up. Um but I I'm reminded a few years ago I had a a supervisory who was herself from a psychoanalytical background. And she sort of expected that focus on three and four. >> Yeah. >> Um and we didn't. We We looked at all the other things. And um I think she was she was and we had we brought TA in as well. And she was yeah, entranced, interested. >> So, that's very important three and four. I like those models, but I also like the next Well, I like all these modes really. It gives me a a sense of how to explain where I am in supervision and what's going on with the different focuses and modes. And we go where we go. >> It reminds me we had the conversation a couple of weeks ago about um using the parent adult child model with clients and giving them a language. Giving them the ability to describe what's going on for them. And this is what you similar to what we're doing here. We're giving the the therapist the language. The code we're using to >> Yeah. >> Great. And the next two, five and six. >> Yeah. >> In that this model is called the parallel processes the parallel process modes. And you know, that is where we're looking at what is taken from the therapist client uh relationship and enacted out in the relationship between the supervisor and supervisee. That's the term parallel process. So, an example of that would be a supervisor that gets stuck Sorry. Sorry. A therapist gets stuck with their client. Then goes to the supervisor and says they're stuck. All right? And they take their out of their awareness, they reenact out or they take the issue into the relationship with the supervisor and want them to fix it. Or or you know, uh some process that is a parallel. So, if they're dealing with anger, for example, um they might then go to a supervisor and you know, out of their awareness actually for presenting supervision in very different way. >> Yeah. >> So, they might present very angry when they're not usually angry. So, they're taking a reenacting out or taking the material out of their awareness and enacted out or influences or contaminates the supervisor supervisory relationship. >> Yeah. >> That makes sense. >> It does. >> Yeah. And the supervisor's function there, if they know this model, anyway, is to think about, "Oh, well, you seem to be in their head, I mean, you seem to be presenting a different person today. You don't usually present this way. I wonder if uh you're bringing things from the therapy relationship into this relationship or maybe you might want to say, "I'm just interested in you presenting me quite different way. Is this something to do with how the client is with you?" For example. So, you can start naming the parallel process. >> That's right. >> And that I find a very interesting one and a very useful one because I think that happens a lot. It's quite often the person that gets stuck, the therapist gets stuck, may then out of their awareness, take their stuckness and present it in a very different way than they usually are. Maybe they present it like their client presents their anger to them or whatever it is. >> Okay. >> And they present it to the supervisor. >> Right. >> Um Another dimension of five or six, which is really talked a lot about, mode six, the focus of mode six, is the supervisor's countertransference. And what's going on with the supervisor in the relationship between the supervisor and the supervisee. And that's interesting again. >> Okay. >> As I said, all to help the supervisor do their best services to their client. >> Okay. >> And seven is the one >> I'm I'm just racking my brains for examples in my case of of this sort of thing and I can't think of it they don't come to hand. I've had >> Well, let me let me tell you. >> I've had supervisees be dismissive of their clients and that's something I would I would bring up in it from this sort of perspective. >> Yeah, so if you feel they're dismissing you and they don't usually do that, >> That's right, yes. >> I'd say, "Oh, it's interesting you I feel quite dismissed by you. Is that how you have felt with your client?" >> That's okay. >> That would be an example. >> Yeah. >> It's example. In terms of supervisor's contract, it might be that I've had an argument with my wife at upper state. It doesn't get resolved, so I'm in a pretty irritable mood. Then I arrive at 12:00 and I arrive at the institute for 9:00 uh supervision with my supervisee. So, I'm pretty irritable, but I'm late because of this argument with my wife. So, I arrive 10 minutes late. They're at the front door wondering where I am. I'm very irritable as well. And then we walk into the supervision session. I don't have no time to give them a cup of tea, which I usually do. So, I'm pretty I've got to carry a lot of irritability. They're carrying a lot of irritability, and I sit down and say, "What would you like to work on?" "I want to work on anger issues." You know, it's like you know, what's the countertransference the supervisor's carrying into the process? >> Okay. >> It's It's what I mean by looking at our process and supervisor's part of it. And seven, the last mode, which was added on later from the first edition, was looking at started off looking at purely organizational issues, but widened to look at society and uh cultural issues as well. So, this is This is not about going through all these different focuses and lineages in an integrated model. It's about just knowing the focuses of all these different levels, but you'll go where you go with your supervisee. And um as you know the model, you'll be able to help or be aware of the different places that you stop in the supervision. >> I I like that that last one. Um So, that was added later. You're saying that was added later. It was originally a six-sided model. >> Yes. Looking at culture, wider contextual issues. Yes. It It stopped because it's Well, where it stopped it was just a six-eyed model. Um then it became a seventh, which is looking at organizational issues and ethical issues to with regulating parties and all that sort of stuff. And then they widened up that mode, if you like, to cultural issues and wider contextual issues. >> Uh it amazes me that that wasn't in the original model. Um >> Well, I think yeah, they looked at the organizations and then they realized that, you know, there were the things like, you know, the cool contextual issues and, you know, cultural issues and other things. So, that So, I like the model for the reasons I've said. >> Mhm. >> Uh it gives me a sense of knowing where I am in the supervision. >> Okay. >> As well as gives me lot more tools to help the supervisee do the best services to their client. >> And and when you're giving supervision, are you Do you hold that in your head or you just By this I would guess that by this point it's just >> unconscious >> unconscious competence, as they say. >> Yeah, for me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so, hence I can just talk to you like this. It's sort of in quite ingrained in me. I just wanted to do a podcast on it because I think it's a important model that people who who are in super vision might think about. Uh and also people who have an interest and people who are thinking, "Oh, perhaps I could become a supervision supervisor and what model might I use?" >> Um I understand it's it's the most popular model in the country in this in the UK. Is that >> Well, that's interesting, isn't it? I mean, in my view, it's very popular. There's, you You I don't know how many editions of that book, Super Channel Professional Edition is. But if you look in videos and podcasts, there's many around. I've done videos on it. Uh if you put into my YouTube, Bob Bob Cook into this a lot on this model. Um A lot of people seem to know it. But it isn't the most popular, but it I certainly a popular one. And I think it's a very accessible model. >> Mhm. Mhm. Do you see any any drawbacks to it? Any disadvantages? >> Well, it's I played chess a lot. And the thing about chess is that you know, it's in three phases, really. Beginning, middle, and end. >> Yeah. >> Both partners know the beginning. Openings, they do it very, very quickly. That leads into the middle phase. That then goes to the end game. So, it's a bit like perhaps you could see, well, it's a bit like Super, you know, therapy. When you teach Chinese therapy, are you just teaching them therapy by rote, you know, do this, do that, do this. And maybe it's a bit like that, this model. Might be a drawback. >> Okay. And >> Uh also, this is I just want to say this is an integrated model. It's not about going through all the different modes of once or something. It's about just seeing where you go. >> Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. >> I hope people found that interesting. >> Okay. I hope so. I use I'm trained in it, and I use I use it, but I don't hold it in my head. I'm not so conscious of of that. And that And as you've talked through it, I'm thinking, well, maybe I have to go back and check my notes and my book and and things. >> And also, maybe you got to the place where I use it, but I don't think about it much, but I do know it. >> Yes. >> Well, I know I can talk about it in terms of what what part of supervision I come from. >> Right. Mhm. Okay, do you have anything else to add upon >> no. I I I I just wanted to go through that and say that I think it's a very useful model. >> Right. >> And I hope the listeners uh it was interesting to them. >> Mhm. Is it um Do you think the training for it is any more difficult, any more because it's it's easy It's one of those models that's easy to do at one level, but there's still a lot more >> I think it's best to teach that model experientially. >> Okay. >> Give people a chance to do it. Rather than just teach it didactically. >> Yes. >> Uh I think >> And is that what you do on your course? >> Yeah. >> Says he, having been on your course. >> Yeah, but I think it's an important point because it's quite it's it's didactically there's a lot to take in. But if you can experience it first, or have an experience to do it then I think you integrate it more. >> I agree. Having done uh so did some training with the BPS, British Psychological Society >> Mhm. >> and it it as you said, it was very dry and didactic. It was not um So, your approach was yeah, was >> And much more useful. Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. I think we're done. And that Yeah, that's great. Thank you very much. Um >> You're welcome. >> Okay. >> You're welcome. And I I really do hope the listeners found it useful. >> Um next week. Well, actually that was interesting. Your When I asked you the question, you gave an analogy back, the analogy of chess. >> Mhm. Next week, we'll be talking about um creativity, flexibility, and adaptability and adaptability. >> But, chess can be very creative. So, beginning therapists, all right, and I don't know what to take away from the next podcast, do what you just talked about earlier on this podcast, because they want to do right and wrong therapy. They don't do it wrong. They often move into or might move into doing therapy by those. The problem with that is it takes often comes at the cost of creativity and spontaneity. And that's what I want to talk about next week. >> Okay, we will talk about that next week. >> Thank you. >> Flexibility, adaptability, creativity, and all those. >> Yeah. >> Right. Thank you very much, and thank you every everybody for listening today. >> Yeah. >> Um we'll see you next week. >> Bye-bye. >> Bye. >> [music] >> You've been listening to The Therapy Show Behind Closed Doors Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe [music] and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.