262 Parent, Adult and Child in the therapy room | The Therapy Show

Welcome everybody to episode session 262 of the Therapy Show uh with myself, Simon Bailey, and the comprehensively compassionate Mr. Bob Cook. >> Oh, that's so wonderful. I've been called wonderful, but I can cope with your other terms. >> The Okay, the wonderfully comprehensively compassionate I'm I'm I'm enjoying this, exploring my dictionary and thesaurus in all the ways that I can explain. Um Okay, what are we going to talk about today? We're going to talk about the parent, adult, and child in the therapy room. It's a big subject. And um I wonder how we're going to approach it, Bob. What do you think? >> Let's start off at the beginning. Let's start off at the beginning. >> At the beginning. >> Yeah. So, what Simon's referring to, of course, is the personality model that explains transactional analysis psychotherapy. And that goes back, and I'm sure quite a lot of the viewers and the people listening to this um know about transactional analysis psychotherapy in this sense around personality model parent, adult, child. And he um really sort of created this model in about 1957, 1958 when he started talking about ego states. And he of course came from the psychoanalytic tradition. He had psychoanalysis himself. But it But he he he And he wanted to become a psychoanalyst, but they asked him to do more work on himself before he was fully accepted. So, he went away and uh he started to think with Bellak psychoanalysis and started to think people could be cured quicker than just sort of 7 8 9 10 years in analysis. And he developed the idea of all this ego state model parent what he called parent adult child three distinct parts of ourself which communicates with each other and um he developed the whole of transactional analysis psychotherapy from that model. So that's what I meant by the beginning. >> Okay. Do you know where he where he got the model from or how he what inspired this model? >> Yeah. So I don't want this to be a podcast about Freud but Freud's first model of the personality was split into three just as Bern's um and that was the ego which you might want to equate to adult if you wanted to Bern's terminology. The id which we could talk about as child in Bern's Bern's future model. And the super ego which we could talk or look at compare to the parent ego state in the future model of Bern. So he took um his idea of ego states or distinct parts of the self from Freud's first model of uh the personality um So I think that's where some of his first ideas and further further analysts like um Paul Federn who was his own analyst who came up with the idea of ego states. >> Okay. >> Uh and I think he took them from well especially idea of ego states anyway from Paul Federn. >> Okay. >> But but what he wanted to do was different than a psychoanalytical core word. He wanted to help people be cured quicker. And so, his um major thrust using transactional analysis in this model parent adult child is around people developing a resilient robust adult ego state in the here and now. Um So, all the three ego states, parent adult child, have patterns of thinking, feeling, and behaving. And he wanted to help people be more gradual grounded and stabilized in their what he called adult ego state. That's thinking, feeling, and behaving as if they were the age they are now. Uh That's what he saw really uh though there's more to it than as cure. >> Okay. >> He didn't work with child ego state, but he talked about child ego state. He sent people who wanted to work with the unconscious more to Fritz Perls, who was the originator of Gestalt psychotherapy down the road in San Francisco, or back to psychoanalysts. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> I I've forgotten that, that he didn't work with the child ego state. >> He talked. He talked about it. It's incredible. Well, that was the 1958-1960. I mean, he died and eventually in 1970. So, it goes back a theory that goes back in time. >> Yeah. >> And it's very different. It's evolved very differently in the last 70 years. It's a different theory altogether. >> It's a Okay. >> But, the model parent adult child, which is this three three-part model of the self, the parent thinking, feeling, behaving, the adult having patterns of thinking, feeling, behavior and so the child that model is the genesis of the modern transactional analysis. >> Yeah. >> a whole field. And bringing you into the conversation. Um I can't speak for yourself, but I do know that I think a lot and especially in assessments when I was first meeting them of which ego state they come from primarily. I mean do you think of it do you do you do you do you think that way? >> Yes. Yes. Um and so I laugh or I yeah, I'm amused at the fact that he didn't work with the child ego state because much of the work that I do is about seeing people in in the child ego state. >> Mhm. >> And the child is in control. And the child is calling the shots and the child yes. Yeah. >> Yes, so when people go into their child ego state they're thinking feeling behaving as they did in their younger self. >> Indeed. >> So what you're talking about is helping them go to different parts of their younger self or maybe their vulnerable self and looking at their thinking feeling and behavior and how that those ways of surviving perhaps need to be updated. >> Yeah. >> I think that's what you're saying. >> Yes, I am. >> So you're somebody who would work clinically with those patterns of behaving in the younger self or vulnerable self. >> And the parent part >> Mhm. >> would be the uh, instructions or messages or that the that the individual received from his parent, his grandparents, from his culture, from his country? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's correct. When do we come from that part we call but I'm called the parent ego state or parent part of ourselves, we're thinking, feeling, behaving as our internalized significant other people. >> Mhm. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Before Burn, he really wanted to build up a or help the client build up a stronger sense of self in the here and now, rather than be stuck or in the parent messages or the vulnerable child. So, that's most of his writing was about how how that's so important. Mhm. And that's because he worked in a psychiatric hospital. And it was really important for him to help them develop a strong sense grounded self rather than being cut off and fragmented parts of themselves like the parent or the child. >> And so, the do I understand that being in the psychiatric hospital, their psychosis was >> Yes. >> was based in their child or in their >> Right. Mainly in their child ego or younger self. >> Yeah, their younger self. >> It's very I think this model is very useful for assessments, for example. So, people who are listening to this podcast might come from other disciplines like client-centered therapy, from Gestalt therapy, from existential therapy, from psychodynamic therapy. Uh, and they'll all have their own ways or their own trainings about human behavior and about the level of disturbance, for example. >> Mhm. >> And I suspect they all have their again according to their trainings and models of how they assess people's mental health state, if you want to put it that way. And TA mainly does that, if you follow classical TA. Uh so, once somebody walks through the door, they'll be thinking, "Oh, as I said earlier in the podcast, and then we'll call it ego state diagnosis, if you like. You know, what ego state do they come primarily from, and how does that affect their mental health functioning?" So, I said, depending on what what you're trained in, so from Gestalt, for example, they may assess mental health state by looking at interruptions to contact. And where where the person stays in the here and now, you know, or doesn't contact them, or whatever. So, there are one ways of looking at assessment. Client-centered uh therapists or counselors will have you know, core conditions and looking at them but they feel and looking uh unconditional values and immediacy and different ways of assessing mental health when a person [clears throat] comes in the room. And TA uses ego states. >> The ego Okay. But you find So, for example, some of my supervisees will be studying integrative psychotherapy. So, they will be looking at different models. And there's often on many courses, there's a TA component, one of the models they look at. >> You might >> And so, they're not using they're not using TA as a therapeutic process, but they're using it to inform some of the other So, inform the way they describe or uh articulate. issues. >> They may >> Sorry. Sorry. >> use that transactional analysis model parent adult child as a theory of personality. >> Yes. >> And how the person has come to where we are today. And uh look at in terms of you know, how grounded they are in the present, which if they going to use the TA model, they're going to talk about adult. How adult are they in terms of thinking, behaving, and feeling appropriate to the age they are. And if they're not, so for example, they actually present younger than they are or they present as um very what we might call parent, if you like, turn themselves off um in the worlds of shoulds and oughts and belief systems, which actually affect the person's spontaneity and way of uh being. Uh they may think in terms of what in the TA world, which I know this isn't about contamination, but might think, "Oh, well, the adult is contaminated by parent and child, and we need to look at helping the person uh get stabilization by strengthening their adult ego state. So, there's a way of looking at uh this model we're talking about parent adult child as where you're helping clients understanding not only who they are today, not only how they got to the way we are today, but also what they need to get better. Using that model. >> And when you're using the model, are you are you being explicit about this in the room or you using it to inform the way you you you conceptualize the the the client's issues? >> Yeah, so how how >> I know you're trained in this and you think parent adult child. So, how do you do this? >> Um I use the latter predominantly. It Cut him and there's TA written through through him. I Everything I do is is framed in terms of that parent adult child model. >> Yeah. So, basically do you teach do you use some educative therapy and teach >> I will do use that when necessary. >> Yeah. >> And I find it with the with the right kinds of clients, it's it's great. They get it really quickly. Um they will then, you know, in later sessions they'll say, "Oh, I couldn't do that." And I say, "Well, you know, well, where's that from?" "Oh, it's my child." Or, "My boss was angry today." What was going on? Oh, nothing, but it So, where was that coming from? Oh, it's coming from his parent. He's He's He's being parental with us. >> So, >> And it it it's interesting that that parent adult child model is also used in business organizations and and education. >> Thinking of parental organizations and >> That's right. >> younger child organizations. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And and in education, of course. >> Yes. >> And there's different fields. We're in a clinical field and everybody most people listening will possibly be in a clinical field. So, I think it is a good model for helping people evaluate their mental health, if you like. That's a very good question what you just asked, this would you explicit explicitly uh you know, share this model with them in the service of helping the person understand how they come to where they are and where they're going. Um Yeah, I I invariably do that, by the way. >> Okay. >> And I bet most TA therapists would probably do that as well. >> Okay. >> And I might be wrong, but I think they not necessarily in the first session, of course, but they may have some sessions for what I would call educative psychotherapy, where they would teach them about the adult and the parent and child and how they communicate together and you know, how they make up a model of healthy communication, what healthy communication is and for example. >> Yeah, I'm not holding my hat my cards close to my chest. I'm >> No. >> I want the client to see what I'm thinking, to understand what I'm thinking. >> I also like the the evolution of some of Berne's thinking around splitting up three parts of the we call parent-adult model, ego state model, if you like, into five. Where he split the parent into nurturing part of the self and the controlling part of the self. Some later books call critical, but I think Berne called it controlling. >> [snorts] >> Um and um while you split the child ego state up as well into free and adapted parts of the child ego state. And I think that is a I like that model, often called the behavioral model or the functional model, but it splits the parent into nurturing, controlling, free, adapted. It helps the person understand better even parts of the self. >> I love it. I think it's great. I know and I love sharing that with with the clients that I teach that teach the model to and they will say, "Oh, well, you know, oh, dad was very controlling and mom was passive and not very nurturing. So, no wonder I've got this this uh belief in self-criticism in in my head." >> Yeah, no wonder I think, feel, and behave this way. >> I I I know I don't I don't I was working with some people um not so long ago, actually a few years ago, and one of them said, "Oh, I used to be TA. Oh, but I got tired of all those engineering drawings that you put on the board." >> Yeah. >> Yeah, you're kind of I think you're missing the point there. Um the those illustrations, if you're going to write draw the the three circles, they're there to illustrate what you're talking about. They're there to illustrate what you're your words, they're not there to distract, to dominate. And And they're there to illustrate the way I think. In the >> Yeah, because everybody listening, as I said, would be trained in different modalities. People [snorts] trained in transactional analysis, this what we'd be talking here is very familiar to them. And then if you as I said, all these are different trainings, will think about how the person's come to be where they are and the treatment perhaps in different ways. And they may know some of TA where where what you just especially if it's an integrated course, they'll have learned it, but they would also learn it maybe in their counseling course as well, so probably know elements of parent, adult, child. Um we primarily think it as a way of doing the psychotherapy. Other people it might be a useful adjunct. Um but they might think about mental health in different ways. >> Mhm. >> You know, the diagnosis of mental health. Unconditional positive regard, for example, is in the world of client-centered therapy. So, people think about that. They think about the core conditions. But, it's interesting in my travels, in my teachings, and most people, most clinicians, think, interestingly, what I come who come may have come from many other trainings, know or have heard of the idea of parent, adult, child as a personality model. We just think it more. >> We just think it more. And clients will often talk about the inner child. >> Yes. >> That's like an offshoot of of a development from TA. >> Uh, well, you know, as I say, Berne was uh created transactional analysis psychotherapy in the post- talk about the parent, adult, child in the late '50s. And he wrote his first book in 1961. So, we'll say 1961 as a sort of time of birth of transactional analysis. Now, it's an interesting question. Was the term inner child around before? Probably not. >> No, I would say. >> I wouldn't thought so. I don't think the term inner child came from Eric Berne. I I I I I have never thought, "Where does the term inner child come from?" Does it come from psych- psychodynamic world or world, which is an offshoot of psychoanalysis, looking at the younger part of the self? Does it come, in fact, from transactional analysis? Does it come from some of the encounter groups which came along in the early '60s I actually don't know and haven't thought about it. >> Okay. >> But, maybe after this podcast, I might go and do Mr. Google and say, "What's the origins of the term inner child?" Um, but you are right, it's a universal world for that part of ourselves. Usually the younger part of ourselves, which may or may not be that healthy. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> I was just thinking who uses that word the most. I think probably the humanistic school, which is made up of um >> [sighs and gasps] >> Perhaps this come from Berne. I don't think it does. Berne, as I said, didn't advocate therapists who going into the child ego state. He was more interested in helping them build up a resilient adult, not going to the past. He talked about the child, but I he would never have coined to anything in a child. >> Yeah, okay. >> But it's interesting. >> Mhm. I I >> I I've been I've been before I come into TA therapy or even knew anything about TA, I'd heard of the concept inner child. But of course, what we do now in 2020 TA therapists 2026, a lot of us work with the more vulnerable in the parts of ourselves. In the child ego state. >> We talked, I think it was in the last session, about the idea of the shadow and the re- and regression to access >> yeah, yeah. >> So, is that the same as as as um bringing forth the the child of of of of reaching the child, that sense of regression? Regression to a child to the child ego state. >> Well, I don't think psychoanalysts look at it that way. But last podcast we talked about Jung and he didn't certainly didn't coin the phrase in a child in any form. He thought about uh he he thought in terms of like a repression and how we and collective unconscious and how we repress parts of ourselves which if we don't find acceptable into parts of the unconscious. Um and they don't see the light. It's that terminology. I don't he didn't think about this in terms of ego states or >> Yeah. >> He thought this in terms of fragmentation, repression. Which are different concepts, but I mean we could talk about them in more modern day concepts. Um I think I anyway I think the parent adult child model is a wonderful model to help people understand how they've come to be how they are today and what they need to do next. And in very accessible language. >> Yes. Yeah, I agree completely. >> And I learned about that model in 1980 4. There's hundreds of books written about parent adult child model. And people who listen to this who are interested, one of the best books I think for early learning about this is TA Today. >> Yeah. >> Came out in '89 uh by Ian Stewart. I mean there's all the Eric Berne books in the '60s, but it's you know, they're pretty dry books and it's they were written for the '60s, not for 2026. >> What's your favorite TA book? >> Sorry? >> Have you got a favorite TA book? >> Um uh I don't know. Um I There's a new one that Mark Widdowson's last book I thoroughly enjoyed. I can't remember what it was, but um >> 100 key points in transactional. Was it 100 key points in transactional? >> No, it's it was more recent than that. It's a It's a small slim book. >> that's the way called basic basic TA, really basic. >> Yeah. >> I find that >> so many written on >> um into TA uh >> There's so many. >> Yes. >> And people who are listening who are interested in this podcast, but I expect most of them heard of the parent adult model. Can just put it into Google anyway. >> So the work is about strengthening the adults. >> Well, Eric Berne, yes. >> Berne. >> It wasn't about going into the vulnerable self. >> Mhm. Mhm. I'm thinking in terms of content. So, we can clearly explain the content of the parent and content of the child. Can we explain content of the adult or do we say >> Very clear. Thinking patterns of behavior, thinking and feeling. Yeah, which were appropriate to the person's age. >> Appropriate to what's happening. >> So, I'm 75. So, my patterns of behavior thinking, behavior, and feeling appropriate where I am now. >> Mhm. >> As opposed to the child ego state where thinking, feeling, behaving as a younger person. Yeah, yeah. I'm parent thinking, feeling, behaving with our significant others. So, you're in your adult when you are behaving, thinking, feeling appropriate to your age. >> Okay. >> Now, most of the work people come in, of course, um their child their thinking, behaving, and feeling from that child ego state often dominates, you know, like overthinking or being depressed or or traumatized or anxiety, and that dominates the person's ability to think, feel, and behave the age they are now in an appropriate way. >> Yeah. >> It's a marvelous model. >> I I agree. Um It's I like my work I like the I like I love my job and it's it informs the way I work. It's great. Yes. And it's so it's so simple but so elegant. >> So simple, so elegant, and so complex. >> And so and but and so easy to explain things. >> So so very accessible. >> Yeah. >> The clients and practitioners alike. >> Mhm. Um I am as I said, I do teach it to clients. Uh not everybody. Uh and I don't do it much because it's very easy for some clients to get lost not lost stuck in that cognitive psychoeducation. Um and sometimes you find we can Okay, we can work out what's going on. But that's just the beginning. >> It's right at the beginning. It's a personality model for understanding how we become where we are today. >> Mhm. >> What we do about it is another whole story. >> That's right. >> So you got the idea of scripts, the idea of games, the idea of transactional analysis proper, the idea of rackets, the idea of we could go on Which evolved over time until Berne died in 1970. And then his practitioners and followers and people around came up with some other concepts like the discount matrix or many others we could mention. But it all comes from the first personality model of ego states, parts of the self called parent, adult, child. >> Mhm. Yeah. Have you seen the way it's been Have you seen it evolved, Bob, over the years since you've been >> Yeah, so have you. I mean, you came in a training probably I don't know the two 20 years ago. So, you have seen many >> No, I came into training just about 12 years ago, actually. No, 14 years ago. >> You would have seen the evolution surely of many different especially in the fields of organizational TA, educational TA, the different fields, counseling transactional analysis. But you know, in the clinical world, I think it's been a lot written about different approaches in TA, relational transactional analysis, integrative transactional analysis, classical transactional analysis. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Redecision transactional analysis. >> that the yes, that that's true, but there's the the description of the PAC model itself, has that changed or has that been fairly consistent? >> No, no, it's changed. So, oh, it's been fairly consistent, but we have had people who plagiarized it. >> Mhm. What do you >> I remember teaching in Australia uh because people taking me over there, and they called um uh they changed one of Berne's ideas about um controlling [clears throat] parent to firm parent. Um and they had different So, people have Some people have gone away from some of the terminology, but not of the idea of ego states. >> Okay. Okay. Well, [sighs] um and it will be >> stop at >> Sorry? >> I think it's time to stop. I've got a sore throat. >> Okay, we are going to stop, sir. Right. >> Oh, good. >> Um >> Only because my throat has started to hurt. So, I think I don't know which part of my I don't know if it's parent part of me or the adult or the child, but either way or maybe it's a somatic um protest from my child, adult, parent, I don't know. But you can see how I'm using the language, can't you? >> You can, I can, I can. And um we're going to call it a day. Thank you very much. Um the next session uh will be number 263 and it will be about the process, the seven-eyed model. The sorry, the process {slash} seven-eyed model of supervision. >> Yeah, it's for people listening who might be thinking of you know, what supervision is all about. They might be thinking about extending, you know, their career into the world of supervision. They might be thinking, oh, how does my own supervisor work? Do they have models? So, I thought a good podcast might be one of my own favorite models. I know you know it as well. Which is the seven-eyed model of supervision. Started off as well the title right at the beginning was called process model, but very soon it became known as the seven-eyed model of supervision. Um One of my favorite and most probably the most popular one, but there are many others, but that's the one I thought would be a good one for a podcast. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much, Bob. And thank you to everybody watching and listening. And um I hope you're enjoying the summer. >> Yeah, and the World Cup is about to start, so we'll be okay. >> It's start, yes. And there's probably a game on as we're talking. >> Well, it's just starting, but I do think that uh well, I'm I am an avid football addict. And Wimbledon's coming around soon, so I am in my element. >> It's not already started, I think. >> holidays is a thought of the World Cup, football. Oh. Yeah. >> Um that's all when my child >> [laughter] >> I don't know what your parents saying about that. >> saying, "Ooh, get on with it. >> [laughter] >> Get your homework done." >> Get your homework done. That's right. >> Yeah. Thanks very much. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye. >> Bye-bye. >> [snorts] [music] >> You've been listening to The Therapy Show Behind Closed Doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe [music] and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode. >> [music]