2020-01-21 Interview with Alain Lewkowicz

so first question can you introduce yourself can I introduce myself and I'm Archie Tom Thomas dish to minister in charge of the innovation of a government youth engagement so most of the people when we are talking to the people about children say ah the digital woman what do you think of this expression well it means that I've got my message across that the digital ministry and digital ministry because before me there was no such a title so being the first Asian ministry is just to get people's idea about digital as different from say ICT which is information communication technologies ICT enables the dish hopper is not the digital the digital is the application of ICT technologies toward a new social configuration so Taiwan is one of the first country may be the first country create digital Minister weathers it says and what does it mean so on the digital Minister says that we have the need of engaging people in a different way in a political context whereas before people mostly acted through the representatives through railroad meetings and assemblies which has this physical constraint just their own size and the fact that only one person can speak at some time but now youth in digital methodology such as slider actually everybody participating in the Brian show thousands of them can vote on the most wanted question to be answered by me which is about my hair for some reason but in any case that is the idea of a what we call crowdsourcing meaning that people can listen to one another's ideas and improve on each other's idea and this says that the democracy itself is a technology and that it could be improved by promoting and from being the analog world only into a digital plus analog world version so that is what too the connection of the word digital to the web Minister means what do you mean Democrats use a technology mmm-hmm democracy is a set of technologies of course going into the voting booth is a technology you use the technological component that is developed the voting box the screen and things like that and so this technology together enables collective decision-making in a you know every four years every two years or whatever basis but a way to make such processes and arrangements as myself is self designed whether we have referendum in SME as the election or not whether we have the threshold of referenda sets to some level of the population whether we enable day-to-day participation instead of just every once every year every two years we have the continuous participatory budgeting and petitioning and things like that all this our mechanism designed to better reflect the actual ality of the policy that what people perceive the world is and also whether common problems are and what common solutions are and to increase the bandwidth that is to say the available inputs into the collective decision-making by everybody how can this technology can add when these people were in fact the prisoner of the camp the blue one and the green one how this democracy and this technology can help them to quit this Dakotah big world one hand the blue in the second kinda green how can we go outside is this smaller hmm so as of how to get out of binary blue or green camps in the Taiwan citizenry when I entered a cabinet and followed my HR form people generally know that there's two fields one is party affiliation and when is gender and I filled in none to each of them symbolizing that one need not to choose in a kind of binary years or no man or women blue or green version I can't rather emphasize the idea of trans culture ality the trans and transgender Miss transition Menendez you can grow up in a camp but move to another camp to learn there coach of the line inches their languages and view where you grow up from using the lens of a new culture you can keep doing so in fact Pawan has more than 20 national languages so each one is a different cultural language so the more that you learn about those national languages and coaches the more you become transcultural meaning that you form your own self-identity out of constellation of different languages and when more and more people do so we have been much more diverse in transcultural citizens Republic that's why you accept to to work with this government not for this government but as you said for with this government because you are the first transgender Minister all over the world the first so the question was with am a first transgender miss in the world the first openly transgender minutes anyway what were you what different meaning that I'm open about it but there could be transgender people that past very well and did not want to go open a beverage then they may be ministers we don't know about it so it's that from the beginning your first step in politics was with the internet Engineering Task Force can you explain to me the origin of your steps in sport in politics so the question was whether my experience with standards making semi organizations like the IETF the internet Engineering Task Force or the w3c the world web consortium and so on informed my political understanding so I participated in the free software movement in particular the Perl language which was the what we call people's language of choice to glue the wild web together because the beginning of Maya where every website that offers dynamic comes next to what people are visiting in a kind of personalized fashion most of which do it's through the per language and so there's a vibrant ecosystem of people contributing to make for example the various automated translations between languages on the web to write web search engines and web crawlers and things like that and all this were done in a very open innovation ecosystem now there need to be certain rules for those browsers and for those spiders right if I have a web site that I don't want to start and part of it to be script by this robots but I want human to be still able to view it there need to be well agreed way like robots.txt that teaches all the web robots to first read that and understand that that there are certain parts meant for humans but not for sin challenges or robots and that is a protocol that has no legal binding power backed by a army or something like that but it is just by mutual understanding that if we all respect this Norn and codify it as a request for comment meaning a document that requests everybody's comments through this collaborative working group participation it makes a web much higher for everybody involved because people can feel much more secure and this is a kind of common value out of those different positions be it browser developers or other kinds of developers and so because of this the IETF in the w3c are set up to be what we call multi-stakeholder mainly not anybody who can show that they have a stake in this discussion with the email accounts they can participate in the rulemaking and that is a kind of political tradition that I joined since I was 14 years old it was the beginning of the of the concept of good go something of zero you mean you create the concept of [ __ ] the government what does it mean can you explain to me so the question about forking the government which is one of the main gov serial slogans is to look at how software is being developed nowadays very few people write a complete system from scratch they usually look at an existing system for example in Microsoft Windows the main browser now called edge is a browser that is a fork of the Google browser chrome they share the same open source projects chromium which has its developments mostly by the Chrome browser but Microsoft took that browser and rebranded it and developed a few different functions but still sheer mostly the comma of what we call a code base and so edge Microsoft edge is a fork of the chrome chromium project and so this implies two things first it is not purely competitive Microsoft wouldn't want the chrome project to wither because they share significant code bases so it's not purely destructive competition but then it is healthy competition because when Microsoft contributed into their fork and it was a very good idea then the Chrome browser may also merge back those ideas into the Chrome browser so that the good ideas being prototype in various diverse user populations may end up informing one another and to a better browsing experience for everybody and so forking and merging kind of imply when another [ __ ] meaning taking an alternative route explore a different possibility which might mean our work and the emerging means of it gain mainstream acceptance and then the mainline want to merge it back so that becomes the commonality for every other new Forks from this time following the [ __ ] the government so because of that deck of zero website g0v that he W is a intentional fork of the public government website govt that TW the idea is that for each government website and services which is usually something that govt that he W there could be a forked version of that website at the same website address but just changing a a to a zero so without spending any budget on every continent people can just simply change a o to a zero from a government website and get into this kind of shadow government that is the fourth version offering very similar services the first one being a more visualized way to communicate the budget how the budget increases decreases and enable a conversation but they relinquish the copyright in the national budget visualization so that by the time that the national budget office think o is a really good idea they can work with national tournament Council to incorporate that design of this citizens budget visualization from a gov serious line into a real govt that he W website so now enjoying the govt that TW you can actually see taking a guru gov zero project of budget visualization now being made part of the government and so that is the merge of the fork of trying a different way to visualize budgets so what is the aim of that what is the aim for the Taiwanese people and what what will be the consequences for the Taiwanese people the people like you like every cities so the aim of civic technology is to build new ways of engagement so that people can understand where shared responsibility in this political context that if we face a global problem or a domestic problem that inflicts its structural issues on each of us we can only make structural changes if everybody are on the same map that everybody understand the how national budget is made how those items are distributed and if they are willing to engage a conversation real conversation with Korea public service about those budget items only then can they develop inform opinions and then inform suggestions how to solve the problem in a way that is privileged Lee an imagined otherwise it could be a very innovative but it's not based on a shared common reality and therefore harder for people to adopt it as a public policy do you consider yourself as an activist activist with average AC like a conservative activist inside these organizations inside the government so whether I consider myself as a hacktivist well I'm certainly more of an activist and a collectivist a collectivist is somebody who only press like but did not translate that like into other actions but that is still entry level very important is to raise awareness but what we are doing then is in the government creating a way for the citizens to not only press like every four years which is called voting by the way for the leading candidates but press more likes in terms of raising pit in terms of raising more crossbows agenda for public discussion and creating the context to inform more people to build such a crowd-sourced platform and what we are doing here can be considered activism if you think of activists as a kind of civic hacking in-depth making sure that people understand that our current civic system including the democratic process is a system that you can offer your insight and make changes for the better so it's definitely white hat and not black hat hacking of the democratic system that's why it was important to make a kind of hacking of the democracy because the democracy of was sick of what what was the sickness of this democracy well first of all hackers Civic hackers I mean the reason why Civic hackers understand the system and make changes to it is not necessarily to fix anything it is mostly out of a curiosity and a shared collective mission to make common values out of different positions and that is the true drive of civic hacking it is to understand the society more and through this understanding also understand ourselves more because we are also products of their society that produces us and so in this kind of mutual common understanding between the various different cultural line ages comes the idea of civic hacking that is inclusive instead of just people writing the computer code it could be people writing legal code it could be people studying the way of storytelling it could be people making visual arts that shows alternate possibilities and so on and so this kind of inclusive civic hacking it's no longer restrained into this computer like we see a broken computer we fix a broken computer a kind of mechanistic thinking this is more of a diverse population wishing to do what we call social production making social objects that allow us to understand our own culture and each other's culture better the first time when we we talk each other two years ago you told me that this democracy was suffering of a patek the risk of this democracy was to become an Apache democracy so last time we talked I will stop surfing that all around the world the people are not engaging with the democratic process as much as they used to maybe their attention or their time is more captured by the more instant gratification kind of social media and this is a global phenomena and inside one this is less pronounced because we're a younger democracy and also people feel very strongly about the democratic process so we don't yet see that dwindling kind of attention span or apathy toward politics and toward democracy as much as other more developed Republic's and democracies was longer traditions but what we are doing in Taiwan the Civic hacking and the Democratic women innovations can suddenly be applied by those older Republic's and democracies in a way to kind of cure this apathy to democracy that's why I didn't so in 2014 the central movement arise but you didn't want to participate to this movement directly we are not with this young generation of political activists but you help them how do you why didn't you participate directly to this movement and how you helped them so back in the sunflower movement the curves 0 channel was simply asking for people who are versed in live streaming to help reporting a live streaming context of the people who are against the sudden passing of the cross-strait service and trade agreement or the cssta so at a time when I bring my equipments to the protest I didn't know that they are going to occupy Adele was not a information ship with people in the street actually only a very few people understand that they are going to break and enter the Parliament and so when I offered my phone at a time as a kind of hot spot to connect HSDPA signal for life streaming I thought that I could get my phone back the next morning but actually the phone was just stationed there for the next 22 days Celebi answer because of that that is the context of the sample our movement is that there's a lot of people who are very much intentional in getting the right message out in that when they are indeed breaking and entering there was no violence confrontation with the police there was almost no police station there and that they were not kind of vandalizing as some of the media tried to portray or they're not mob since the one they're actually very intentional in setting up a demonstration and they're the Sarah theory is that the MPs were on strike so we do their job for them because we kind of elect them to do this job so anyway so the idea here is that we're here to support but I wasn't aware that they're going to occupy but the fact that you said that time is democracy is very young democracy people hear a lot sorry and people care a lot about democracy but it's a young democracy do you think that there is a conflict between two generation of people here in one the young people who did this Sankara movement and generation of their parents for example are the grandparents we who lived under the the martial law is there a conflict and is it a danger for this democracy that those two kind of generation fight each other and it can stopped the democracy to people to go ahead so the question is that whether the democracy itself while being so young can create by participating the democratic process a divide between generations and specifically three generations my generation is the last one that remembers the martial law people younger than me have no idea what martial law is and the people above my generation like my father's generation they are the generation that's protested much like people in Hong Kong now against the martial law and eventually democratized Taiwan and generation before my dad my grandma's generation well that was under Japanese rule my grandma's first language is Japanese and so that is the very difference certainly not Democratic as a kind of colonizing culture that she was raised and so I would say though for other four generations that I talked about it democracy is a shared value various generations under very different colonizing martial law just lifting out of martial law now deep inclusive democracy and globalization these four different contexts people are tried in various ways to get the freedom of speech of expression of assembly and this is the kind of value that unites the different generations together the particular ways of getting the democratic process of course differ because there's more to become available people's imagination gets widened people thought of referenda as something that is monumental in constitutional in my father's generation but now referenda is being used in more like solving day-to-day issues that concerns the entire society such as state energy policy and so because of that the techniques and instruments have different generational interpretations and it's true that people who have different living experiences around same sex marriage disagree with each other of what marriage makes in a referenda but both sides agree and promote the idea of referenda as a democratic innovation that's my point but in the same time in this society I feel that there is a big gap between two kind of people the people who want to be independent because Taiwan is a country de facto and on the other side people were afraid of China and they want to have a good relationship with China right because they are afraid of another wealth but this is a new division or because you are talking about this four generation of people who have the same value and the same feeling for democracy but in the other hand we feel that the choice now today for the Taiwanese people is money or freedom what do you think of them so as for the question about whether that's maintaining the sovereignty which is the base of the democratic innovations is somehow controversial if one wants you make more economic ties with the PRC there was a question right but in fact the economic communications and cultural exchange with PRC have not slowed down it is true that in the past few years the more and more taiwanese people thought that our democratic process is not up for people in the PRC territories to decide however they are still open for economic and cultural exchanges with the PRC is not a zero-sum game is what I'm trying to say and also there's people who think that people in Hong Kong is going through a very similar process in eight hours early democratization in that more liberal democratic people after a large protest is now actually helping to run their community level policy development and there's a lot of it in the early kind of Community Development era in Taiwan where we have lifted martial law but have not yet voted for the presidents were the civil society the social sector grew in its legitimacy and this community building process he reinforces the democratic culture that then informed the presidential election since the one after 1996 and so there's more and more people who think this is a valuable lesson that people in Hong Kong or people around our region everybody can learn from Taiwan's experiences and talent can help in that and so this is the other way right this is not afraid of a external culture somehow influencing Taiwan so that we regress to be more authoritarian this is rather we becoming more democratic and have innovations that are readily applicable and then spreading these innovations across the region so that everybody in this region have a hope that the democratic innovations is not counter to the Asian values what do you think the fact that woman like an igloo forever choose to quit the DPP because she wanted to to be with the same idea of for aliens from Rosa because she wanted to claim the the independence of Taiwan and change the name of Taiwan because their identity of Taiwanese people today is to be Taiwanese because they are democratic they have a democratic is your name of 71 to Tallinn no to change the name of Republic of China okay the marciea ROC into Taiwan it means that okay now our history with mainland China is over we which is democratic value so we are not changing anymore mmm-hmm what do you think of this well my name used to be on to do stuff so I mean name change you know been there done that but in any case what I'm trying to say is that everybody have their freedom of expression here and all the political parties centering around this idea there's many many ideas of which that we see the citizens when they're voting on the party ticket they chose right so the various different parties which represents maybe more than a dozen different imagination to that question of the naming issue they have published a bit on their public forums and the policy forums and way that people voted currently stays that most people are happy with the idea dance of a taiwan roc or roc left parenthesis Taiwan referenda says by you don't pronounce the parentheses so it's just ROC Taiwan and to me our SD by the way means the Republic citizens let's go back to the central movement the fact that this movement was the first screaming revolution was it the fact that the central movement was the first streaming revolution what does it say that Taiwanese they were pressing there's a lot other like you know the Arab Spring that was livestream so yes but it was the first one in Iowa yeah okay sure okay so about the role of live-streaming played in the sunflower movement I think life streaming drastically lowered the participation cost because people even if they are in like very far other countries many time zones far removed France I want if they care about the occupy they can participate in the Occupy for live streaming is a bi-directional device when people dial in to livestream and there were many livestream stations each talking about one particular aspect of the cssta so maybe some people care about they allowing telecom components from the PRC to offer telecom services in the new editing 4G network there's many people care about this but they don't have to physically travel to Taipei they could be anywhere in the world and yet participate in the discussion and contribute meaningfully to the rough consensus of people which by the way is that we disallow PRC components in a core 4g infrastructure and it's fine because of that the participation rate is gross exponentially because the more people participate the more that they see their IP has become the agenda that is discussed by the occupiers the more they will want to kind of watch your death garden to spend more more attention and occupy process and you see very similar dynamics at play Hong Kong - you know can you explain to us how this central movement began because how could the people imagine that they could vote love like that we have no protestation some people we met said that from the old generation of Taiwanese people who used to live under the martial law Taiwan became the little dragon you know everything was made in Taiwan in France for another night but when I was a kid my clothes and my my choice was made in Taiwan and when the democracy arise they said oh we lost everything because the workers are paid more yeah so there is also this new division between people who think that under the master no it was good because the economic was good and we did the democrats is the synonym of the bad economy mm-hmm so I'm not sure whether it is a question or juice a statement that I'm asked to comment yes okay right so I can't rephrase that question so quoting the statement that somehow today's and economy during the martial laws are better and days in the democracy although a lot of innovation did not result in better economy unquote food estimate I have two answers first during the martial law there was no freedom of the press so anything that reflects a bad economy or a natural disaster or whatever is systematically dialed down and indeed censored so people don't see the bad news literally because nobody writes bad news during that martial law and so obviously if all you read is good news from the state propaganda unit it's easy to think that there's a lot of social harmony going on however after democracy it's true that many people feel that suddenly it become very chaotic and people have a lot of different voices and some strange and some outright wrong from their perspective but that is how Helen can innovate you cannot innovate from a streamlined from a kind of cookie cutter mindset for Taiwan to have our contributions in the film world in a design world in making innovative software and hardware products in all sort of these innovations it's essential to have people think different and so this idea of a linear GDP growth seems to be the only number that we're looking at when we're doing policy now we want to say that's the war economy foreign ranks taiwan as one of the four super innovative in a world that were the most innovative people even though that the gdp linear growth this of course because we're now a developed country in the WTO not as fast as people who start from the lower baselines that's true and so i would say that the statement is based on fact but it is indeed a value choice and that one chose diversity and innovation when we did our democratization you you think that china is not is not an innovative country so the question was why did WEF not choose PRC as one of the super innovators why did they choose say Switzerland or Germany or some other countries well I think the WEF mostly look at like new ideas being produced not a efficient implementation of existing ideas so there really is no kind of bad or good or that some innovation is food and implementation is bad or that creativity is good or efficacy is bad no these are of course all good things what I'm trying to say is that every jurisdiction have its own prioritized values and Taiwan because we're a liberal democracy come to prioritize innovation over linear growth and we also prioritize inclusiveness like people have to take care of each other's education and broadband access and things like that instead of just linear growth in the large cities and things like that so let's talk about the fact that you define yourself as and I not keep the conservative anarchist authority is given to luqman so a conservative is someone who respects and conserves cultural traditions as I said in Taiwan there's more than 20 different national languages each representing one or more cultural Anna jizz so while a progressive trained in one culture may drive the process of improving the progress according to Deaf culture that may sometimes have a effect that makes the other culture less commonly known or less visible so that it may look like progressive but to the other cultures involved that is not a progress that is actually just absorption our documentation or adaptation but it all ends in absorption so that is a kind of way that we're not going what we're going instead of like monoculture listen or silo multiculturalism where each culture is in safely in its own clave what we're going for is transcultural ism where people can easily travel across coaches and there oh I didn't - and what this means in a conservative sense is not just to keep the culture as is but to make sure that people gets exposed as much as they want to the various coaches though we can make new coaches in a transporter away and that's ties to the innovation culture that I just talked to you about now the anarchist part means that were not having one culture dominate the other cultures through the use of coercion the use of commands the use of physical or other kinds of violence rather we want those different cultures to go about their ways in a way that respects their diversity and do so in a way that is more like a cooperative or at least collaborative relationship instead of a dominating or colonizing not perspective it can be seen as a contradiction to be an anarchist and to work inside because usually we say that Aniki that no God and no master so I don't have a master either do you see people said to you it's a contradiction ucomfy anarchist Oh [Music] yes I was having a sensitive tissue because Brian asked death question Brian things speak excellent French that's what oh there was the custom in this edition yes oh yeah that's right she was sneaking booze she's a friend of penis I really hot oh yeah because I was just you know that my eyes were closed and and moved in various ways but I just keep hearing this very eloquent French speaking voice and when you said don't ask question because it's disturbing the minister yeah and she said yes you're right that's very funny but they don't wasn't so let's talk about this possible contradiction to be an anarchist and working inside a government hmm so the idea of a state of anarchy which means simply that nobody is as charged and possibly chaos and a philosophical idea of anarchism which is rejecting authorities and rejecting hierarchies is actually two different things and I think it's important to distinguish between the two and not four like randomly destroying things to have a state of Anarchy I'm trying to say that we can get about governing through multistakeholderism so that there is governance but we don't rely on the direct command and order structure hierarchies to do this governance so collaborative governance or koga is in fact compatible with anarchistic principles so let's talk about what are you doing as inside your digital Minister what is your your task here is it to create a free dialogue between the civil society and the civil servant and why it was important to create that and what is a problem between the civil society and the civil servants in Taiwan hmm so my work as a digital minister yes first to show that a government is not a black box that it is in fact a fact that we have a lot of mechanisms many of which describe in law but a lot of which is just north within a public sector but people who don't work in the Emmis tration they don't have visibility in the machinery that is their public demonstration apparatus and so they often attribute individual ministers ideas as the cost to whatever oh deficiencies that they're perceiving demonstration to do and so what I'm trying to show here is that if we can have the Korea Public Service have more direct conversation with people in a more effective way they can also sympathize with that people more so the government can trust the citizens more and what the government trust is citizens more by being more transparent and accountable some citizen will want to participate because whatever they offer they can see how it's translated into real policy and a problem of the previous generations of democracy was that it doesn't scale if you invite say 20 experts to form a focus group or a panel maybe they can produce something useful they if you invite 20,000 people into your City Hall then they is very difficult for them to produce something useful unless of course you design process around deliberation also the design of deliberation process which predates the social media is getting a boon by the social media by getting more people's part time participation in a deliberative process previously people thought that they have to spend entire days just sitting as citizens assembly and reading materials and things like that very few people in percentage-wise would want to do that so maybe you do sortition and maybe you statistically make your volunteers representative and things like that but now if people can participate in part time just spending 5 minutes or 10 minutes but add-on this idea of social media getting people's attention toward the same problem then the actual hours added together actually exceeds that of the face-to-face consultation and so it can then inform the face-to-face consultation to happen with a much more clear picture of what people's discover into this problem space and the possible solution space then autographs for the face-to-face celebration so this is not to remove or replace face-to-face consultative meetings this is rather to make it much more informed by crowdsourcing the agenda of such consultations how can you explain that in the 90s in the the institution changed a lot in Taiwan with the democratic process but not the institutional culture why institutional structure and institution didn't change together so the question was why did institutional like the process the rough law and so on an election of the President and so on changes but culture for example that was built during martial law that is still very authoritarian didn't change immediately with it well because culture change takes time culture is in essence a set of norms and habits and it's hard to change habits and so while you can appoint a prime minister that want to be democratic and engaged in people in a way that's listens truly to their voices in someone the people did not really have a first-hand experience of such constructive deliberation and therefore they would still act habitually and correctly under martial law in a more authoritarian fashion of like power struggle and things like that and so that is important to understand that whatever habits evolve during a martial law many of which are still here with us in each of us like I'm one of the generation I remember the martial law so I still remember the kind of self-censorship one can feel if you write some time that may not you know be appealing to the central government censors and if you have this kind of censorship long after freeze freedom of speech long after the press freedom is granted long after that's the Minister of Culture no longer controls any press whatsoever people can still act as if they're being watched by the censors and that habits change very slowly you think that today because the democratic process started with the end of the martial law in 1987 more than 20 years more than 40 years after do you think that the civil servant today in the 20 and 40 years okay more than 30 30 years so some 30 years later you think that the 2/7 always these Jews habit of self-censorship yes so so the question was like for 30-some years since the lifting of the martial law have not the public service changed in this culture well almost by definition people who are working in the public service if their age is under 35 then they don't remember the martial law period and of course they're much more liberal and much more inventive and innovative but it's also true that people in the public service are not universally under 35 years old and so there are still a lot of people some in senior positions semi junior positions that are still constrained by the martial law indoctrination when they were very young and in that it's just the fact that we're living with the thought you think that there is a danger to create a total demo press total transparency that you think that it can be a danger for the democracy itself it will be 2010 yes mm-hmm yes okay can you say that okay okay so um I'm not for the idea of say total transparency if you take it to the logical extreme that I lifestream everything that I see every day that people literally watch the world through my eyes for some reason that will make no privacy for anyone who I encountered with and that will be indeed like some bad episode from Black Mirror right but I'm not advocating for that I'm advocating for radical transparency where radical means at the root so whatever decision is being made with me as the chair we make a transcript so that people understand that whatever they say that s finding power will be published in context however everybody gets ten working days to work through their messages and removing say privacy concerns or removing say that the anecdotal quotes that they quoted from other people that they don't want or they didn't ever get concept to spread to the public and so on but the thing is that is public by default so it takes some effort not a lot but some effort to censor part of the issues that concern say trade secret or privacy that don't necessarily go out and so this process means that open is the default and that is what I mean by radical but it's certainly not total transparency how can you explain that saying when administration wanted you to create this digital Minister because those people belongs to this generation who lived nude and martial law so what what was the who how this idea arise in their mind to create digital innocently asked you to do to read this Minister so the question was how did this idea of radical transparency get into the Taiwanese political culture so that first the KMT during 2015 and then the DPP in 2016 have to work with such a collaborative governance project that I helped create it was because of sampling movement the movement the occupy is a demonstration but it's not just a protest is a demo a demonstration of radical transparency at work and so people understand that even with half a million people on the street and many more online we can listen a scale and arrive at concrete suggestions and demands and rough consensus that is then legitimized by the head of opponent so because of that people cannot unsee and unlearn that there is actually room for participatory democracy through collaborative governance and so at the end of 2014 the mayors that advocated for it won the mayor who advocate against it lost and there's a clear political signal for everybody so since you are leading it's Minister did you see some change some radical change in a way of making politics in Taiwan yes so since I become the digital Minister for example the control yet the branch of the government that takes care of auditing the campaign donation and expense started publishing in raw data for each individual contributions and expense they didn't use to do that they used to do all the auditing by themselves and as the public to trust them and publish only the statistics and recommendations but because of the occupiers one of the core diamond is to do away with the black boxes and many people in a Gaussian movement worked with each other to go into the control Ian's asking for the photocopies of the individual records bring them out scan them into computer graphics used algorithm to divide them into small tofu chunks and gamified created a game to render those different images into numbers like a spreadsheet so they reverse engineered the contravenes campaign donation and expense reports and a contrarian said well you can't guarantee that this is 100% correct even though maybe each tofu each cell has three people looking at it you can't be 100% sure and as the civil society says well then you should publish the raw report so we can work with as investigative journalist and as data scientist it does exactly what controller has done during the time that I was digital minister and so this bright rising social norm of anything that has binding power need to be available not only in its conclusion but at during its process is very quickly becoming a social norm not just for the demonstration but for the control branch for the legislative branch and for the judicial branch and in the same time when we talk to some independent journalists said the big danger now today is that China control the information there is a lot of fact-checking organization but in the same way China tried to dis inform people every day there is most more than they told us five millions of Sarajevo archives in each day so in one hand democracy is more and more transparent but in and this democracy became more and more talk because of this cyberattack and disinformation and so on and so on so how do you deal with this contradiction it's not the contradiction pose not true I don't see the contradiction is honest again I mean everything became more become more and more transparent but at the same times for the population of Taiwan everything become I am more confused confusion and dark yes that's true both are true so but if you're asking me to comment on the relationship between those two right there's no contradiction both are true so about the observation that while this entire policymaking process is being a lot more transparent than before and people making people more informed there's also actors that try to sow discord in the democratic process make people less informed by spreading this information and both this informed celebrations and those disinformation campaigns are a fact in our everyday life all we know is that for each policy that you helped creating that you participated in your idea became policy you become immune or vaccinated against this information about that particular policy because you have the whole context and you cannot be provoked into taking kind of a black/white view on things because you understand that there's various different colors there's different sites in this policymaking arena and so this oversimplification device of provoking outrage that is information relies on no longer effective on that particular issue so the more people participate either in fact in journalism or in creating policies together the less they would be suspect about to the DISA formation interference do you think that basically because you said that everything you tried to make more transparency do you think that it can solve two problem the difference between opinion and emotion and the problem of identity also what do you mean planet and there is a low in Taiwan the refugees know which is not very clear because we still don't know who is Chinese and who is not Chinese very hope that there is a lot of Hong Kong people I don't think there is refugee lot oh it was a draft yeah but you wouldn't cover it for Hong Kong people anyway yeah because for people in Hong Kong Macau that's a different law yeah yes but there was a refugee class yes a political refugee clothes in the Hong Kong and Macau Act that's already law what we didn't have is really act for non Hong Kong and Macau people okay and that's because I don't know our kind of natural boundary you know is SC so anyway so the claim occult clause was indeed applied by a case-by-case basis and people are asking for more clarity but that is a different thing than this idea of refugee act that will apply again just to not Hong Kong no copy and um PRC people so these are like two different things about the we just respond to the confusion between opinion and emotion mm-hmm okay so the idea of listening at scale means that where people feel strongly about something it is not only the option of acting to destroy people status destroy people's reputations destroy the enemy of your counter camp that used to be kind of the only recourse if you think about things in a black-white binary way but deliberation means also listening to people who feel differently as you and really there is no right or wrong about feelings around the same shared fact one can feel happy the other person can feel sad about the same fact yet they don't dispute that it is a objective fact and so more transparency that builds this objective facts enable people having the realization that a bellison share facts there's bound to be different feelings and so people who feel differently may nevertheless agree on the facts and also on the solutions it's just a few differently and so this kind of polity building is much more inclusive than the kind of binary thinking that says for any topic people who don't feel the same as me is automatically if you have to define the Taiwanese democracy it's a young democracy but do you think that is it is one of the most mature democracy in the world because of all those transparency for example chen shui-bian who have been elected in 2000 he went to jail for a long time because you receive black money in France we have generation of politicians we have our own historical background of democratical Democratic background in France but we have a lot a lot of politician who have never seen the face of a church even though they received black money every day and every day in the newspaper in France you can find some politician were corrupted politician so would you say that taiwan democracy is one of the most mature and one of the most real democracy in the world i would say that our public demonstration have a very strong code of conduct against corruption that our contribution to anti-corruption is indeed very strong and that there is a general culture in the public sector that we take pride in being not corrupt and so that i think is one of the most valuable thing in a taiwanese democracy because that also made the people trust the statistics more that people trust the numbers the data that is produced by the public service because people understand is very difficult it's almost not possible to lobby or to pay dark money black money to a public servant to get them to change the statistics or the numbers that their data system is observing and that gives confidence in this shared data that is the bedrock of people building a democratic society based on different feelings our palace in fact if people dispute the fact itself that makes it much more impossible i would say actually to build this kind of develop democracy how can you explain that there isn't I want a lot of people coming from the Civic tech sector working to improve the democracy in the same times or whether in the French example a lot of people coming from the Civic tech works for the government to try to twist the kind of reality here we have the feeling that all these hackers are working to improve democracy yeah so why are there so many Pro social Civic hackers and I don't have one two reasons first as I said we're the first generation that can really do democracy before us some started martial law still link us and there is a kind of stealing of how much your democratic design can go but now because of our speech freedom our freedom of imagination is very very strong so that people find it very rewarding because then your policy design your mechanism design has a real effect not just a constrained fact that could be taken out at a will of a dictator benevolent or not right so that's first that it offers real gratification the second is simply that we have less legacy while people who want to make changes to the public administration in established European republics must first understand why it came the way it is through the various Republic's and norms and habits and historical nuances that builds this public administration system there's simply less of that in Taiwan so even people who are somewhat naive about politics can go in and only take a year or two and they understand all there is to understand to the democratic process because it's a mere there's less to learn about and then they can start making innovations not you think that those nowaday were we are talking a lot about artificial intelligence do you think that the fact that artificial intelligent you thought you think that to say that artificial inflation can bring everything and to solve everything is not a little bit naive to believe that certainly artificial intelligence as its defined simply means well automation that seems like something that people can do and now machine can also do it is certainly not a god of the machine that can automatically solve any plot issues we're not living in a Greek drama and so that is not what my perception of artificial intelligence know so what is your perception well it's just a general term to describe a certain kind of computers that can somehow automate away what used to be people's work for example you used to be that only people can compute numbers like calculations so computers were describing people but then general-purpose calculators with programmable software appeared and now when we say computer it means machine not people or for example printers used to be people who work with the movable-type to make the tablets for printing and that's very valuable work in fact power to enter enlightenment however now when we say printer we don't think about people anymore we think about a machine so these are also intelligences of printers and computers of the previous generations that are being put into artifacts and now we use those printers and computers or calculators without thinking place that's there were people performing these types but it doesn't mean that these people are out of the job there are still data scientists that makes use of computers to compute and direct the creative direction there are still journalists that makes use of the printers to print whatever they want to print there and disseminate ideas in a timely fashion so it is not that the work of journalism or the work of data science is going away or statistics is going away it is simply that the boring and trivial part of their tasks is being automated by artificial components so you create the die wife of each year to Taiwan what co-created by yes yes can you explain what is virtual Taiwan okay so back in late 2014 Minister Jacqueline's high at the time attended a CAF zero hackathon and bringing with her to policy questions first is that how do we regulate tell away key there is no Union for teleworkers how do we regulate tail wagging and a second is that there's a lot of startups that are founded on Cayman Islands but not registering tawa even though they are all Taiwanese people operating in Taiwan why do they do that and can we change the company act so that's less people register Cayman Islands and more people register at that one so these two questions are not easily answered by traditional ways of policymaking simply because there is no representative of either telework all people who register there start at the Cayman Islands there's no form of assemblies or collectives or associazione that you can simply ask them to send a representative to negotiate by so because of that when she proposed this question a lot of gap zero volunteers including me that just start drawing on this white want a possible way to reach out to those stakeholders via digital means so that they can express their voices that can map out the problem space so that we can meet through face-to-face consultations to find out what may be the common issue that they are all facing and that became the V Taiwan process they don't get in you afraid of the fact that if everything becomes virtual if you create new digital tools to improve the democracy don't you think that the risk is to be too far away from the daily life of the people in the street so the question is down if everything becomes Tuvia - and if everything become digital not to think that it can create a gap between what you are trying to do in in this Minister and the reality of the daily life people here on the street yeah - on street they use mobile phones I mean when they are on the street so they are still connected to the Internet I'm not sure what the question is trying to portray like like are there places in Taiwan where the phone doesn't have a reception and what about people who don't have a phone reception and they would be excluded from democracy is that the et question okay so the question about if we make our documents online and we make our participation in online spaces what about people who don't have a connection to the Internet or if people only have very limited bandwidth and we put so much data online so that with a broadband they cannot really watch a live stream so whatever we're live-streaming doesn't quite reach these people so are we excluding them from democracy that was a question and answers simply is that profit is human right in fact one if there's any place in town that doesn't have the proper antics of let's do this again so the question was about what about people who don't have internet access or broadband so that whatever we put online is unavailable to people are we not excluding them from democracy to desire to access first we bring those consultations to people were not asking people to come only for online discussions were using online discussions to inform the agenda for face-to-face conversations in people's vicinity so we're not replacing town halls were augmenting town halls in a second is that for people who live in places where there is no mobile phone reception or landlines or any kind of profit access that's our fault profit is a human right in Taiwan so now even at the most indigenous and rural and mountainous places there is prevent connection the remaining 2% or so many of them above 3,000 meters high the Minister of Interior is currently also using helicopters to ensure complete coverage and so to us we take province humor very seriously because it's not just a right to access it is also a right to participate yes but even though they even though they have access to Internet when you see the statistics there is not a lot of people who are going to see what is free access on internet so how can you educate all these people to go to sea to participate because now the statistics show that there is not a lot of it's not a majority of the Taiwanese people who use those new digit to participate this transparent democratic way of living the question is that even though our participation platform joint govt TWU has more than 10 million visitors that in fact is not a majority for Taiwan with 23 million people slightly under half the answer of course is we need to make it more popular but it's not just asking people to come to our platform it is also bringing the conversation to the people and that is why people like Brian people in the unstoppable happy party is so important because they can take a trending controversial issue maybe one of the petitions that's going on in the joint platform and package it in a way that resembles a entertaining show and reaches more people that people would be more willing to understand the political context between the people who are pro and people who are against that particular conversation and so when more and more people remix this transparent products into various other messages that appeals to different segments of people that makes us more inclusive for our publications cannot be accommodating to all the different neural diversity cultural diversity linguistic diversity no matter how we try there's bound to be some gaps that we did not anticipate and if we allow everybody to make remix our work through choosing open licenses and making sure that they are not hindered by copyright and things like that people can remix those messages to cater for their own community and that increased the reach so we don't have to be the only people that caters to the publication preferences of people rather there could be any number of intermediaries that remixes the message and make appealing shows or appealing artifacts out of it so it's the about the Chinese shadow who seems to be always on Taiwan for example the young generation of people we went to an agency to agency that agency and he told us that a lot of young people want to go to work in China because China offered a more and more opportunity and better opportunity that than in Taiwan so there is also self-censorship those people that don't want to talk freely about China do you think that it's a real danger this how to to avoid who how to to make this shadow go away from from Taiwan the question of China because China is a year Taiwanese people said oh you know our most important problem is China I still don't quite understand this it isn't any help to make Taiwanese people understand that they have to they don't have to be afraid anymore about this Chinese issues right so the question was how to make people understand that even though that PRC indeed has a lot of economic ties with not only Taiwan but everybody else that's their way of living which currently is much more authoritarian than our preference we will not in fact be the dominant one in Taiwan any times the rent that that was the questionnaire I think people really made that message very loud and clear during the Hong Kong protests when we see the Hong Kong movement everybody in Taiwan including actually both leading presidential candidates at a time support its Duncan people to fight for democracy air for general election as well which is exactly what Helen went through from the 80s to the 90s and so there is no controversy in Taiwan during the presidential election that Hong Kong people deserve what Taiwan has done in the 80s and 90s and so I think this serves as a constant reminder that authoritarianism is very close is in our proximity however the real progress about countering authoritarianism is in fact happening and in fact that Taiwan is a Deborah democracy is strong enough to support people everywhere in the world who want to advanced democracy so that builds the kind of self confidence that can let people look at other eight arianism and clearly say that this is not our preferred lifestyle and I think during the course of this presidential election a lot more people especially young people built a very strong resilience against this kind of authoritarianism propaganda the democracy network or whatever yes but we have the feeling that same when one last election in 2020 because of what happened in because when I was one of the factors sure because when you see the pools the statistics six months ago nobody could say that she will win the election so it was a time I began June yeah so is it because what happened in Cancun and is it because of what decision being said about Taiwan that saying man won the election so about the German protest I actually also tweeted about it in the June 16 movement and I think people really agreed with the general sentiment that this is the chance that the PRC can show that they if they say they also public say that they commit to revise their governance for better governance and their justice institutions but that there are poor implementation of the right to justice is in fact a root of the anti black movement if they have a court system that is even more just and respected than a Hong Kong court system of course people would not be deaf angry about extradition right so because of that it shows that they have a way to go when it comes to the public trust in the court system and so they of course need to work on improving that instead of you know telling the Hong Kong people that they shouldn't protest about a lack of judicial accountability and transparency in the PRC and so people making this kind of arguments are being supported by pretty much everybody in Taiwan and it is true doctor sign made such statements before her other opponents in the presidential race but eventually all the other presidential candidates made very similar supportive arguments but many of them made this so Bali months after the in Hialeah protests so I wouldn't say that the Hong Kong protests give anyone an advantage I'm just saying that people who make such a standing clear the earlier the more advantage to get from popular support because everybody in town is supporting that you think that what happened in Hong Kong Xin Jun of the is the same provoked the same consciousness issues this initiative at some corner for Guillermo is the conscience covering the central not a coalition just I don't have you citizen yeah how many entire Park doing incision interior animal chasing us so you know the shop so the question is whether to anti allotment cares similarities in terms of engagement strategies with some people with the sunflower movement okay in a sunflower movement there is indeed this kind of Polly centric organizations the students again so for the question about the similarities of the anti ELab vis-a-vis sunflower movement that comes to engagement strategies of organizers of the movement the sunflower movement was initiated by around 20 NGOs each caring about a different aspect of the cssta so it was kind of coalition so it is not leaderless per se there are exactly like 2025 leaders each being a NGO because of that this coalition think about some analogies by each participant in this collision each NGO also focused on something like very unique to that particular NGO when organizing the Occupy movement but in Hong Kong we can easily see that there are countless leaders like anyone can be a leader and start writing say may glory be to Hong Kong on AI HPG and suddenly get a lot of people volunteering to sing in chorus and to remix those ideas in various different languages since the way with these some of that during some flower but still we can count the number of leaders by in Hong Kong and Headley ELab is countless and so because of that it's not leaderless it's like everybody can become a leader very quickly by educating themselves about a way of organizing the protests and so I think they have a much wider and deeper reach into the people who are young and also people who are out who really want to get into this protest and that stay reached far more people around the world then the supply movement but they have certain resemblances in a sense of using digital tools to coordinate as the sampling movement but I think they went much further thank you very much I've got other question but with you - double okay so it was that that should probably for you have the wrong address why are you so why are you using VR on masks because the first time when when we met you said to me that it was when you want to rest when you want to go away and brief somewhere else you take your you're not scared to go leave in a spin in the face can you explain to me I'm sure the reason why I choose to use starchart VR which is a educational tool to make the viewer step out of the earth and look at the earth from the vantage point of the space and the other planets in their accurate position now is that making virtual reality not about something fictional but rather about the real position of the celestial bodies within the solar system and so to me it makes the idea of a body of politics more clear if you are viewing from space because you don't see the jurisdictional boundaries you don't see most of the features of civilization other than the lights and that view the overview of earth as a body as a celestial body is instrumental when thinking about global multi-stakeholder issues if I want to talk about Internet governance if I want to talk about is emerging machine intelligence if I want to talk about effects of 5g network on the planet climate actions certainly have a vantage point outside of the US can remove a lot of the cloud that clouds our thought patterns simply because we cannot easily imagine what is it like to be in the other part of the planet because the clouds shields are I was liked so that we can only look at our vicinity which is a small part of the earth so us as a complete body if you view it from space you remove a lot of those thought patterns and habits the clouds ones judgments and so that's why I choose that as kind of my one of my relaxing practices but you are going there alone or will sometimes you bring friends with you yeah it could be arranged in a virtual meeting for sure but mostly I go here alone and to listen to some music and things like that what what do you think what is your thinking when you are upstairs but I mean in your space hmm so um when I'm in the space and floating like between different celestial bodies not only me but pretty much everyone who I invited into the space is tinkly looked back to us no matter where in the solar system you are for earth is the cradle of civilization human civilization I mean and it shows that how fragile and how unique it is in the solar system at least and so people become more pro-social and care for each other more because their artificial boundaries you don't see it from space but as unity and the strength and fragility of our shared planet is much more tangible when you're in space so that's the kind of thought I have yes very much facilities to paparazzi concerns when you see socks are not visual that actually Oh mr. Byam I appreciate very much gonna stray that would get some Christian colonists politics of social balance feel more question because we don't know how we are going to use the engine why why it was important for you to go to the night night show with Brian so my main idea is to make pedagogy I would like people to understand that the work that I'm doing which is radical transparency has certain similarities of the work that Brian is doing where I am trying to in a digital ministers position make everything that I chaired publicly available what he is trying to do is to get prominent politicians in a context of a conversation to make apparent their agenda and their ideas and their goals and things like that in a way that is accessible to everybody not just people who are interested in politics and so I would like to talk to Brian not only about the policies that I helped making but also try to show why such a mimetic engineered like humorous take on politics is important to build a polity that can engage in diverse cultures instead of kind of a monoculture of just right or wrong yes and no and black and white and things like that so I would like to contribute to this kind of thing at the beginning almost at the beginning of the conversation you said that you are creating digital tools not only to put everything in stream in streaming but at the same time each time when I hope to see you you film our conversation and you are filming every conversation about is this not live streaming - no yes but you are going to put it on the yeah our website on your website and why is it important for you to to show to the public my face or cameraman our conversation because that's what I see like the reason why I want to contextualize this conversation instead of people who are watching this film right now probably only see my head talking and not understanding that you are nodding all the time to me it is important to show that where I am looking at the world is nothing unique anyone who are accessing the same information that I'm accessing can potentially think of even more innovative ways so instead of just monopolizing the information offered to a minister when we're chairing a meeting and instead making clear the context so that people can reenact this context and think what I would do if I'm the digital minister currently being interviewed by Elaine what would I say and things like that and because of that of the contextualization people can become much more prepared when they do perform political actions and so it takes away a lot of mystification when it comes to the work of a career politician it's a way to do to demystify the mess and pineapple it the figuration work and why is it important to demystify so that everybody can participate for example if you put on your website our conversation how the people can participate with us they can also think that's the question you asked me if there is a more appropriate according to them version or whether the same idea may be put in a more eloquent way or whether I omitted or missed certain part of people when I say everybody supports the right of Hong Kong people to enjoy the promised self-governing to them maybe I'm missing some people leaving some people behind maybe some people don't think so and these people can certainly let me know that I'm not representing them and so on so it enables a kind of peer-to-peer conversation around the same social object people stop being you know just the Watchers of the film and their only engagement is to rate it when star or five star on Netflix or somewhere else but rather they can just write me and say when you're answering Elena's question in this context I think you should have said this instead if it were me I will put it differently and so on but if they only look at the edited and cut version where it's mostly me speaking without this whole conversational context they can not be as informed as they are if they look at a whole context yeah a long page was superceded is out Shiva you're just not right why did you decide to create a digital double view of yourself mm-hmm so if you refer to a 3d scan avatar in a virtual reality no digital double yes yeah but I mean which incarnation because I have many incarnations one is the actual 3d scan model of myself that can walk and talk in virtual reality one is simply a kind of Skype projective through my iPad sometime attached to a robotic body sometime just snap to one of the chairs I don't really know which one you're referring to or which scenario is why did you create so many develop yes okay thank you so the reason why I create a lot of technologies that enable what we call telepresence meaning that being present at some place while physically being elsewhere is out of practicality I get invited to speech and forums and summits all over the world and if I keep doing air travel frizzy would have an impact on climate change but also I will make the jet lag perennial for me and so it's not practical for me to fly to each occasion where I need to engage in conversations but if they can use inexpensive equipment such as a holographic two-dimensional cause projection or some sort of telepresence robot or some sort of just an iPad but snapping on a chair and they can rotate the chair but it can enable me to participate in meetings without having to fly all over the world so at the beginning it is just a way for practical jet lag avoidance as well as reducing carbon emission you said that internationalism in the 21st century is the internet does it mean that the question of the reconnection recognition the recognition of Taiwan is not any more an issue so the question was on the Internet thus the fact that Hawaiian websites ends in tubs PW and anywhere in the world including in PRC territories if you type something that TW it goes to the Taiwanese to the Taiwan domain name service and it correctly responds within the governance of Taiwanese people is that a kind of international recognition and I would say yes definitely that the thought TW is actually the domain name that I print out my name card and that is the only domain instead of the name of any country or whatever I just wrote my email address and also the website pedis that TW on it to me that is the main space of international negotiation but that's because I'm ditional Minister I'm not pretending therefore other ministers they don't have international recognition challenges I'm just saying that on the Internet governance issue we don't see any trend of kind of cancelling that TW from the internet that's not happening so with your digital different doubles you can cross the border you can go where we want to go you can discuss with everyone has internet connection profit yes yes say that yes you don't need I thought you in any visa yes so anywhere that has brought band connection I can send my additional double to and I have done so repeatedly in many say UN venues or various different multi lateral organizations and high-level meeting since the one because mostly the jurisdictional control occurs at passport control but a robot does not need a passport and because of that my robotic double can go anywhere that has a prevent connection and as long as I have a secure communication link to that robots that robot cannot represent me it can reprint me from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world what do you think of this democratic country like France like European country or America or Australia doesn't don't more organized I won because they're afraid of losing their business with China the question was about the countries such as the US and other countries where the enormous deep country sorry the question was about other liberal democratic countries such as the US and other countries that does not recognize Taiwan but in fact US does that's the power relation act or the TRA the TRA and its subsequent act gives for example the a I'd see the de facto embassy very similar status and in fact is a real Embassy in all but name in its functions and in its a dispatch and things like that of course we now also have that power and Travel Act and various other acts that enable record visits of high-level officials and things like that with Cece and to VC and from and things like that so it is obviously possible to build a relationship with Taiwan you just have to think creatively but the fact that they don't want to say that officially for example entirely there is no Taiwanese embassy there is only an office representative office but the people ruling so these are not ambassadors they are ambassadors according to our ecosystem but not according to French diplomacy so how can you explain this appropriate attitude it's not my role to comment upon other jurisdictions attitude what I'm trying to say is that for some years now all the tech rope Tiwa economic cultural office representatives are ambassadors according to our foreign service and so we're not being hypocritical here we call them ambassadors they are our ambassadors whether our ambassadors is recognized as ambassadors depends of course by the people they interact with in many jurisdictions when our ambassadors deliver their communications and their missions especially for the civil society and the industrial sector they treat our ambassadors as ambassadors it is only perhaps the Korea public office working in foreign service in various other jurisdictions that have this concern of calling our ambassadors ambassadors by the civil society and coach Roy industrial sectors have losses recognized our ambassadors as ambassadors so you are the one we try to spread the open culture in Taiwan and all over the world one have the ones my head what about ogp of GP workers I want but I want as twice to belong to a GP and a GP said no mm-hmm okay yes brother l GP actually have already agreed to partner with Taiwan so we are in fact making the national action plan as we speak and we will likely produce one sometime around May which is the inauguration day of Simon's second turn and so unlike other OGP member countries who make two-year national action plans Taiwan makes four-year national action plan that's aligned exactly with the second term of dr. Thai Nguyen so that we improve on the democratic process of LGB itself by making sure that we don't run afoul of the usual problem of the two year action plan the second of which sometime for between two presidents and the incoming president is then held also to the promises of the previous president that creates a kind of political issue but for our NAB that's going to be exactly the same as the second term of dr. sanguine so there is no disconnect between our na p and her campaign promises about open government and we think is a better system as a we've worked a GP offering a better process and partnering with the o GP and calling ourselves the Elven government's Iowa National Action Plan and other OTP member countries may actually learn from us and maybe merge back to this process so we are in close partnership and this kind of affiliate of partnership status instead of a member status actually offered us more Liberty at innovating on the core processes of the OTP while adhering to the OTP process and Amman and when precision when you say when you are the when you want to spread the open culture what do you mean you mean to open all the the data from the government to the people or also the depth of the people when I'm saying that I would like to make a open government I mean to make the government proceedings transparent to the people sometimes through of a government data sometimes through participatory processes sometimes through accountable institutions for example the cultural yen improvement and all this makes the state apparatus much more accessible and transparent to the people and certainly we're not saying that the people should be transparent to a state which would be surveillance is there a red line that you you come across mm-hmm so the question about is there a limit to make the state apparatus transparent because you are talking about totally teri yeah so the question about the kind of boundary of making the government proceedings open of course it should be protecting the privacy of the people involved because we are in this for what it is not about making comments our selves in our private and of us and in our private time right so we only make public the meetings that our official meetings I'm certainly not publishing the menu of every dinner that I had and it has nothing to do with the work right so this is that and of course national secrets confidential documents and so on have their own role some of them need to be declassified after ten years some 21 30 years and of course open government needs to stop at those national secrets that were classified for various reasons so there need to become embargo and of course there's also that son of the public benefit for example there was a dataset that people really wanted which is the release of the frozen cabbage or some kind of vegetables in readiness to a shortage of supply to make more accessible the aggregate products that people rely on and so it serves to balance the price of the market now this amount of release every day to the market is actually a kept confidential because if you can predict the release of the amount weighed before they gets released to the market that actually doesn't help to fight speculation the speculator would have perfect information to continue to speculate right and and so that is kind of like a trade secret of the government in the Council of Agriculture that when we asked them how soon after the release of that into the market can you publish the data because they were withholding everything and I'm say you know even national secrets you did classify it usually after a decade or two so certainly there is a time at build up time that you can sell me after this amount of time this is no longer sensitive to the market fluctuation and you can provide it for people in raw data form and they held some meetings and go back and tell me minister we can release it after two four hours because after what trading is like oh it has no amount of influence on the next day's price they determined so we set up an open data plant that releases after 24 hours thank you [Music] just well you know when we got speaking and you can okay security Pegram it'sa that of course takes a little bit more time and expensive in a kind of front-loading the expense by the other hand if you do accept PRC components in your core network you're going to have to run security audits anyway and so that is like amortized expense and whether the cost-benefit scenario makes sense for each telecom companies as well as for the citizens that they serve again that is their own assessment while we're trying to provide is just some real facts in our experience we're certainly not saying that these calculations are the same Universal we come off a policy technology competitive obsession you know my anthem around have 192 I know things and we can don't wanna beat you well first of all in certain areas for example in semiconductor manufacturing we still have a healthy lead of easily nearly a decade ahead of PRC and there's many why they call it dual use technologies that appear see currently don't have easy access to which is why there's alleged efforts to exit this through non market means but all these I think is no match to just setting up core innovation value in the society so that people would very much like to innovate on the cutting-edge technologies that serves the common good the substr could after not just a profit-seeking Chehalis but all the societies stakeholders and Helen has no shortage of the leading machine learning researchers and communication researchers and so on that works towards death so I'm quite optimistic when it comes to making up innovative landscape what I'm trying to say here is that sometimes it's not a linear competition between like who deploys the most number of five two stations first equally important is where you are strategically placing those early adoptions of five two sites are you only benefiting certain people in a core municipality of your capital or are you enabling previously unheard-of solutions that is needed for example to enable telemedicine for the least privileged to people in a rural place or to enable novel forms of social collaboration in the lands that were people who are of a indigenous culture I want to revitalize their culture and could rely on five Jews Berko presidency so that people can experience their culture together and so on it's all these cultural and social values are what is needed to make the five gene innovations that involve the whole society instead of just a few researchers and that is why we have dedicated sandbox plans for dedicated spectrums for the issues that pertains to a local use case not just a large municipalities so you say to the world that they have to be confident and then they are they don't have to be afraid of Chinese technology well my main message wherever it's disinformation or whatever is don't panic because if you're in a panic especially moral panic it actually makes innovation harder to happen because innovation requires the kind of entertaining various different possible solutions but in a panic State people seek for the fastest solution which may or may not be the best one over even a medium term so let's talk about your double-eye you are the only one to do that or did you met other other and did you met already of our doubles or are you the only one to do that mmm you mean other ministers or anybody yeah other Minister we I was part of the virtual island submit which is I think started by a few Caribbean island countries they want to talk about climate change and sustainability for islands and because a lot of it came from the climate change and action world we don't want to have more co2 emissions by running such a submit' so everybody is a digital double in that submit but we still have the same schedule we have the same like ministry or participation the opening remark just like a Rio summit by everything that's virtual so we can say with our conscience that running this submit with participate from me from Taiwan and also someone from the Pescador from the island which is on islet contributes almost nothing to the proper emission because we imagine that you did that for the first time because you couldn't go to the UN for example at all that was just a time where the press discover it because the UN IGF was live strange but it up routinely and even wait before that's Geneva meeting we even domestically I used the 360 robot to visit the cells site of the National Palace Museum to tour a kind of Japanese exhibition of the national treasures and then I talked with the head of the hectare rager of National Palace Museum and a lot of people kind of piggybacking because they watched a 360 livestream with my robot walking typing questions so I kind of moderated their questions and asked the chief curator and so we've used out some very routine I would say for quite some time before the pressed discovered because of the IGF Geneva meeting what was the reaction of of the Chinese people for example who refused that the world that he sent to Taiwan well I mean there's nothing against the UN rules for you know playing a movie and this is just playing a movie even though it's recorded to maybe you know 500 milliseconds ago it's do a movie and so because of that I've made a lot of impressions to the UN related places that we're just talking about a sustainable among those were just you know talking about policies not really politics and we always stay on topic and so the PRC of course according to their interpretation of a certainly resolution they cannot coexist with a Taiwan representative in the same room in the same meeting but as you can see during the Tai Chi of Geneva livestream even though they try to protest the chair said no to the protestor but they did not leave the room and that means that they don't classify this robot as a kind of human ambassador which would require their leaving the room if they cannot remove me from the room and so they may not be that happy but they coexist in the same room with my robotic yes because it's not just a movie the voice of Taiwan mmm-hmm which is what you're making I guess it's a comment okay okay okay thank you can you introduce me this new account this is the oldest one we with we scan this in France and we went to a 3d scanning studio where they use a lot of cameras in a kind of Salander and captured meaning to pulses and that's one of the closest and that's the main one that when I was in Paris talked with people like primary and secondary high school people in this avatar form and shrinking this avatar to the same height as the young people in virtual reality so they don't have to look up to me they can feel that I am destined high as them as to enable a kind of more equal conversation and that's one of the very early experiments in setting up a more deliberative scale in the virtual reality we also make another skin which is less used that is around the same time which is me but unless I find I guess and a ghost cup should I think it's make something as you wish in Thai way how do you use this an account so we use a virtual reality platform called high fidelity in high fidelity world we can make those avatars move by using those controllers so if I move in the real world it's like a cheap motion capture device so they figure out where my head is turning and where my hands are and make the avatar in the virtual reality to do the same movement and this is even better if you only have 3G connection because they don't have to transmit my image only the place in the space of my ankles and that's enables a faithful recreation of my movement in the virtual reality space which can then be projected as hologram or something in another physical space it's again a way to be anywhere in the world something yeah to to make co-presence when they're previously required a lot of arrangement travel and in the same time you can be out of the world at the same time that's right yes ok moving into first time okay okay and there is another position there's a static position and I can also show you the kind of base model where it is made of as you can see it was more rough and polygons don't look as good as a polished one so we did some cosmetics in virtual reality and put on eights and Alice and and so on and did my hair but unlike the cosmetician the makeup artists we work with I don't have to do it every time I appear on the show I only do it once and then bedroom Adama can be reused so it's also I guess you were environmental-friendly the dead stuff in a Polish model of data okay now without this yes okay [Music] see if this works okay I suppose you can see what I see this Sara remember visiting addis ababa and a lot of my colleagues went to a museum to see Lucy which is a kind of ancient fossil record that helps establishing the East and North Africa as one of the origins of the modern Humanity of Homo sapiens the system so called Out of Africa hypothesis and as you can see a lot of human-made structures are simply not visible when you are viewing this you will instead only have an idea of population based on the kind of Lights dad's day offer and that's just us we're talking about so maybe it's not just us they are host of other places on this is Hong Kong and we can also see many other cities around here in the world and for many people there's like here it's typing for many people if they look at your son they cannot directly look at the Sun they will have to wear sunglasses but because the star chart is protected against radiation and you can easily hold this up and look at it without hurting your eyes and then you can actually travel outside of the solar system and look at the configuration as it currently is for the solar system and there's also many other constellations around us and if you truly want you can also like this is various other planets and you may also look at its basic properties and make a trouble between the celestial bodies and that is moss and it can also show the constellations as the people imagines them by painting configurations of stars and overlaying it was a cannon mythical figure object that they try to assign meaning to this formation of the stars and that is the moss and two of its satellites as they look now and we can go to us so thanks to the spirit and curiosity Rover's we now have a pretty good view of moss as this and there's various interesting features around here so are you okay with was this should we look at something else can you just drink one minute and listen to a music like you do sometimes when you take your iced with you yeah there's actually already music playing it's just not playing out okay so I don't know how you are going to do some of this you know maybe I had some soft function without speaking okay okay see perspective put full straight for us thank you the mellitus is looking at Earth from the Sun so we're probably that's all there is to see just to meet other scenarios any thinking product to Taiwan an origami okay [Music] to achieve a time [Music] darling she knew [Music] okay is this what you want I'm not sure whether weii strong Singapore but I guess it decides to show them is it possible to Luke Rosa then that is for something to stand up but physically go closer I think it's just a limit okay okay no company okay hey we're done