14 Patterns Behind the World’s Greatest Minds - David Senra

I'm a lazy workaholic. I have to force myself to do it. My demeanor would be to do nothing. What's that mean? >> Okay, this was shocking. So, I've been a massive fan of Rick Rubin for probably decades. Uh, I grew up listening to rap. He founded one of the most important hip-hop um record labels in his dorm room when he was like 18 or 19. I think he's 63 now and he's still making incredible music. So, I've done a bunch of episodes about him for going back like five, six years ago for uh going back five or six years on my other podcast, Founders, right? So, I read biographies about him. I read his book Creative Act. Have you read Creative Act? >> Yes. >> Okay. And so, then I had the opportunity to meet him and then record an episode with him and I thought, you know, I've read his biography over and over again. I've watched every interview with him. I thought I kind of knew what to expect. And that was when he said, "I'm a lazy workaholic." You can even watch the clip on the show where it's like this. You're lying to me, Rick. Like, what are you talking about? Because out of anybody in the world that gets paid to be themselves, you would say like Rick Rubin's got to be towards the top of that that list, right? And I thought he was just completely obsessed with music. I thought he was just obsessed and absolutely loved his work. And his whole point, he was just like, "No, I have to force myself to do it. Like, I like the act of creation. And I like finishing the creation, but the 5 months of us doing thousands of takes. He goes, "I don't like that. I wake up every day and I'm like, "Oh my, it's not like he said the line he said." He goes, "It's not like I wake up every day." I'm like, "Oh my god, I get to go to work today." He goes, "Oh no, I have to go to the studio." >> And what was the reason I wanted to talk to you about that was cuz like when you put that out, I got thousands of messages from people in all walks of life saying, "This is exactly how I feel. Like I love after I'm done working. I like some parts of it, but I feel that I have to force myself to do it. And uh >> Rick's hilarious because he he's like, you know, it's a beautiful day. We filmed at Shangala, >> his recording studio, Malibu. And I think I think I might have said or he might have said he's like, I'd rather just be, you know, out here butt naked in the sun [laughter] instead of in the studio. >> There is a part of me that doesn't want to show up for anything and I have to overcome that every day. Yeah, that's his that's a direct quote from him, which is again shocking considering because you know I understand if you're trying to do something, you do it for a year, maybe five years, maybe you can you struggle through that for a few years, but this guy has been in the same industry, the same business, likely doing the same trade for four decades. And he says he's felt like that forever. He's like now he just has a little bit more control over his life. He was telling me that like the first 25 years of his career, it was essentially seven days a week, 16 hours a day in a dark recording studio. >> It's tough to do if it feels like a burden. If you have to make yourself do that and you've got this tiny bit of enjoyment at the end once you've shipped the product. >> Part of part of my like my heart sank a little because he is like somebody admire and you know, somebody almost like a hero of mine and I feel the opposite like I wake up you know and I was like I cannot wait. right now the the team uh we took a two week break from the new show because the team was in Italy. One of the team members is getting married and it was like close to depression. I was like I miss not being able to podcast and have these conversations and like just do the things that I'm doing every day. So it's completely opposite. It's how I felt is how I thought Rick would have felt. So it was like very surprising. You see somebody is literally the best in the world at what he does. He maintains a singular position and he's telling you no. It's a [ __ ] struggle for me too. >> What's driven him to keep going if he dislikes the process that much? He loves the magical act of creation. When something is not going well and they're they're failing and they're failing and then failing and they're experimenting and experimenting and then they just do one little tweak, it's like, "Oh, now we got it." He's like, he says he's addicted to that that moment of creation of figuring it out. That's what he likes. High level problem solving. Basically, the context window that Rick Rubin has is bigger than anybody else's for music. And he's just able to take all of this stuff in and I think you just nailed it. his and this is something very common with anybody who gets to the top of the profession. You're going to notice that they have this this encyclopedic knowledge of history in their head. >> So he'll talk about, you know, oh hey, we're struggling with, you know, we're working with uh Red Hot Chili Peppers. We took an idea that the Beatles did 30 years earlier. Uh there's this great documentary about his recording studio called Shingali. I think it's a four-part documentary. And if they're struggling, he's got this like massive library. And he'll just go in there. He's like, "Hey, we don't know what we're doing." He'll take one of the the musicians he's working with. He'll just pick a random book off a shelf, open to a random page and read a paragraph and then they'll just talk about that paragraph. Did that spawn any kind of thought and so yeah, he's got this incredible knowledge in his head. >> Chips on shoulders put chips in pockets. So this is a quote from this venture capitalist named Josh Wolf. And I think about this maximum all the time. It reappears throughout entrepreneurship history. It still reappears for people building companies today. This comes from the founder of Apploven, this guy named Adam. Adam is probably the best founder no one's ever heard of. He's running like a $170 billion market cap company. They're going to print something like $6 billion in cash this year and he's got 400 employees. And Adam hires the the the context of this discussion we were having is that he won't if you just have like this normal, you know, you you grew up wealthy, you went to great prep schools, you got into Harvard easily. Like he doesn't hire those kind of people. He looks for dysfunctional people that have something to prove. His number two is this guy named Raph. And Raph uh has worked for Adam over half of his life. Raph is a high school dropout. Started working for Adam when he was 17 years old. Uh got kicked out of his house, had to live inside of the office. There's pictures they've showed me where he like built bunk beds in the office. He's now the second largest uh shareholder in App 11. So the kids in his early 30s, the guy's in his early 30s and he's got, you know, five or six billion worth of Appven stock, for example. And when you hear Adam and people like this talk about, hey, these are the people I want to hire. They have something to prove. They're very hungry. They tend to work a lot harder. They're a lot smarter. They're a lot scrappier. But then I think what's also interesting is they're also telling you about them. And so one thing that that drove Adam to build his company because like I said, it's you know $170 billion market cap company. When he started the company, he tried to sell he went around to all the top VCs in the world, tried to raise money. He's like, I will give you a quarter of my company. I will give you 25% of my company for a million. That means he valued his own company at $4 million. Every single top VC in the world turned him down. Then they went and funded his competitors. And once they did that, he goes, then it was our company goal to drive those people out of business. >> And you go from, you know, saying my company's worth 4 million to 15 years later, I took my company public. It's now, you know, almost 200. I think the the the top it went to is like 220 billion. And he thinks what they're trying to do is he thinks he has a path to like a trillion dollar company. And he wants to do that by essentially having this like island of misfit toys. These people that were looked over by other people. They failed over and over again. Uh they would not be hired by the big firms. It's a weird company with full of unusual business practices. You have to be an unusual person to thrive in that kind of environment. And he feels those are the best the single best employees that you can find. What is it that you think drives somebody to keep going through that situation with that chip on their shoulder? >> I I mean, dude, me and you have hung out a bunch. We've had crazy conversations off very personal conversations. Uh, some of which we should have recorded. We were talking before here. I mean, you have this >> like you know, you grew up workingass, this like random part of the world. Uh, I think I obviously have this too. Um, I don't I think like both you and I and I think Adam fits into this and I think Rapha just talked about it's like the the feeling I had is like man I was just like born in the wrong spot like this is not this this is not my peer group. This is not going to be the destiny of my life. Like this is why me and you read so much why we listen to podcasts why we're like huge into you know self-education and self-improvement. It's just like, well, this is the station I was born into, but like I can the world is very malleable, and if I go after something with like maximum effort and drive and intensity, like I can change the world around me. I remember the first time we recorded, I think you were still living in the UK. This is probably like four years ago, and then you just gave me this tour of this crazy, insane studio you've built out. It's like, you did this exact thing yourself. It's like I didn't like my life, so I'm going to use that chip on my shoulder as fuel to prove that I'm not subject to these circumstances. I can actually influence this. >> There's a Kanye West clip. Have you seen this before? It's him on the Breakfast Club talking about 2013 versus 2023. >> No, I'd love to see it though, >> dude. It's not quite the edit that I wanted cuz a lot of the B-roll and stuff of all of the [ __ ] that he did. But this is this is [ __ ] spectacular. the interview for me from 10 years ago. Everybody [music] says I love that interview. People didn't love it back then though cuz I was [music] speaking to the future. I'm 10 years ahead mentally and I'm trapped in today's time and every now and then I crack you a smile for 2013 but I'm cracking you a frown [music] for 2023 and I'm focused on what it's going to be. Just mark my words as I'm Kanye West. You seen my execution. [music] Did I not become the biggest rock star on the planet? Did I not influence all [music] musicians? Did I not go and get the exact girl that I wanted? Did I not start my family? That I not [music] ruffle the feathers of two presidents? Did I not get a chance to operate work for my idol? Did [music] I not make Louis Vuitton? Did people not line up at the Yeezy store? Did I not make the college dropout? Late registration, graduation, 808s, [music] blueprint one, blueprint three, watch the throne, cool summer, [music] and Yees. If you like it, then that. >> I love that. It's funny you bring that up because have you seen the documentary on Netflix where this guy's poor? He's living in a shitty apartment in Newark, New Jersey at the time, and he has a filmmaker follow him around as he's trying to sell his beats in New York City. Have you seen this? >> It's in terms of like >> biggest bet on himself, >> the hero's journey. In fact, I transcribed I think the first two episodes of that documentary. You could skip the third episode is like the perfect illustration of this idea like that we talked about last time I was on the show. belief comes before ability. >> Mhm. >> And you see like they just he's he's walking to the train and he's practicing his Grammy acceptance speech. He's never even wrapped a bar. He does not have a signal a single out. It was so good that I was transcribing those two episodes and I was going to make it into a founders episode and then he did that like huge anti-Semitic rant. I was like, "Oh, I'm just going to put this >> We'll shut that for a while. We'll wait till he comes back around." >> Yeah, you're right, dude. I mean, this is the the topic that's probably the most likely thing that I write my book about will be the lonely chapter. And it's moving from a place where you don't belong to one where you feel like you do. And it's you're so developed that you no longer fit in with your old set of friends, but you're not yet sufficiently developed that you build the new ones. And you're stuck in this messy middle, and you're thinking, well, the the Rocky montage is three and a half minutes in the movies, but it's been four years for me. And what the [ __ ] going on? You've got all of this doubt and it's tainted by uncertainty about what the future holds for you and everybody that's around you doesn't understand what you're doing or doubts what you're doing or actively stops you from doing the thing that you're doing. And it's a selection criteria. Very few people are born into an environment that is supportive for rapid change and growth because people don't like that. It feels like chaos. It feels like uncertainty. And if you make a lot of changes, it throws into quite harsh contrast all of the ways that I'm not changing. If you grow a lot, that means that my lack of growth is potentially on me. It's the same reason that in the black pill and the incel community, ascending, as in being liked by women, is one of the um it's you become outcast if that happens because you're not a true cell. You're a fake cell. One of the reasons for that is if you can get laid or if you can get a phone number from a girl, maybe I can too. And hope with disappointment is way more painful than apathy with acceptance. And uh yeah, chips on shoulders put chips in pockets. >> Do you like it's funny, you never know where you're going to resonate with. [snorts] Um and I think the out of all the think about how many short form videos we we've probably consumed in our lives like I don't know tens of thousands. And there's like this one minute maybe 30 second clip of Shia Labuff. I don't even I don't I'm pronouncing his name. the actor Shia, whatever his name is. >> And he said something where it's just like when me, you and George were talking right before we started recording. Uh you'll you'll feel this like when you read, you know, somebody else's like story of book, you're like, "Oh, I feel like I'm reading about myself. Like this is exactly how I feel." And he was talking about he's another person that chips on shoulders put chips in pockets. He was talking about he's like, "Hey, I don't care what you think." He was he's like because he goes, "I grew up in an environment where there's like no support." So what the defense mechanism and the tool that he used was he's like I had to convince myself that my opinion about what I was doing in life my life was the most important opinion and he literally and he would cut everybody else out of his life that gave him like counter evidence that hey you're not going to make it as an actor. Go back and watch the documentary on Kanye. There's like there was nobody around him that he was not going to keep you in your life if you said hey just be a producer. There's that was a great Kanye clip that you played. One that I watch all the time. It's a minute long. It's called Kanye West spazzing out. This is before he put out his first album. And he's cl he's he the clip starts he's like hitting his hands. He goes, "Don't compare me to any other producer rapper." Because at the time there was other people that started in production and didn't started rap. And he went over and over again. He goes, "Hey," he goes, "You understand at one point my beats were whack, dog." He goes, "I taught myself how to make hot beats." These are, this is his words now. He goes, and the same thing with rapping. He goes, "I don't know how to rap. I'm going to teach myself how to do it. That growth mindset and he goes and the clip ends and the great thing goes and I have a leg up because I hear my beats first. >> The mind is a powerful place and what you feed it can affect you in a powerful way. Okay, so that is a line from another rapper, this guy named NF, who's one of my uh favorite rappers. And that reappears throughout not only the books I read, like all these books on history's greatest entrepreneurs that I've read for my other podcast, but when I start sitting down and talking to, you know, some of the best entrepreneurs in the world, like I do for the new show, this came from Toby Luke, founder of Shopify, and it was the most surprising conversation I may have ever had in my entire life. Okay? Because you go in like if you've never met somebody before, you're gonna there's gonna be some kind of like typ cast, right? It's like you got this German engineer who built a $200 billion company and this one of the most successful technology platforms that ever been created and he started as a by himself with a single laptop in his wife's childhood bedroom because he had no money and they literally had to be supported by his wife's family at the time. And so you think this guy's German engineer, he's going to be super analytical. And then you talk to him and he's all about intuition and vibes for lack of a better word. And his whole thing was just like, well, the way you view yourself is very important and you should know that you can change the way you view yourself. And what you tell yourself, the inner monologue that you have is very important. And so for a long time, he told himself that I'm afraid I'm I'm afraid of public speaking. I'm afraid of it. I'm bad at it. That's just who I am. And what he would do, again, this sounds like Willy Fufu nonsense, but it actually works. He's like every day for 10 minutes for I think a week or two or however long it took, he would sit there and write 100 times. I love public speaking. I love public speaking. I love public there's nothing else to that. Just the same positive affirmation and he was brain literally brainwashing himself to now he's phenomenal on podcast. He can he can give a presentation in front of his thousands of employees. He can go on stage. He loves public speaking. He literally changed his brain. And so I think this is really important on uh not only like the people you keep around you. We just touched on it's like dude I don't have any money in my life that's like pessimistic or negative like these kind of people like they're cut out root in STEM. Uh I my information diet is like I read old books and I talk to smart interesting people. The way that I choose who I talk to is like the conversation we had. How do I feel after I just had an hour or two hour conversation with Chris? [ __ ] alive. Excited. Like you had George's idea about sofa friends and treadmill friends. >> You should Yeah. Repeat it though. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just that after some people you feel like you need to go and lie down on a sofa and stare at a ceiling for a while and after spending time with other people you feel like you want to go and run on a treadmill. The postcontent clarity or postnut clarity the equivalent of for after you watch a piece of content on the internet from a creator that keeps on popping up in your feed or that maybe you've subscribed to for a while or not so long of a while. How do you feel after that? Do you want to go outside and ring your mom? Do you feel like you can achieve more? Do you feel like the world is against you or for you? Do you are you bitter and looking for enemies or are you positive sum and thinking about abundance? And again, I think people are just way too cavalier on what they put in their mind. So like I'm just going to sit on X and I'm just going to the algorithm is going to push whatever it wants into my brain and I'm going to sit there and receive it. That's crazy to me. It's like you're influenced by everything. You should be very careful. The mind is a powerful place. What you feed it affects you in a powerful way. >> You just like you don't put [ __ ] in your body if you care about your health and the way you look. Like why wouldn't you do that same thing for your mind? >> Yeah. Someone once described modern wisdom as spirulina for your soul in a sea of fast food for your amydala. And I was like yeah that's quite nice. >> But okay so this ties to I think a large theme of the discussion that we can have today and a lot of discussions we have in the past. It's like man you get one life. You get one life. You have to do some I I do think work for most humans is like a source of meaning at least for you and I. It's like I feel really freaking good about the podcast I make and the information I put out there and like what I'm putting out there. And to to play on this other end where it's just like you're just like junk food for the mind. It's like you this is your one shot at life and this is what you did. You have to feel good when you hear stuff like that. I really think if people could if people could go to the end just for a moment. If they could speedrun two alternate universes forward. one where they did the equivalent of selling their soul and getting all of the success but not resonating with what it was that they did or speedrunning it in a way that meant that the success came but it came without effort and without personal sacrifice and without like uh investment of yourself and the other one where you had 50% or 10% of the success but it was spoken truly from you like I I' I've been around enough people who have done something that resonates and that they love who are way less successful than others that have got bigger platforms. But the people that have got big bigger platforms are way more miserable, way more miserable because they don't they don't feel it. Like you don't want to be you don't want to achieve success. You want the feeling that being successful gives you and you can get the first without getting the second if you're not careful. You can achieve success and not feel it. Especially if you do something that you don't really care about. I would I would say though like the benefit to tie to tie this together is like the benefit of reading old books is like I just finished rereading this biography uh of Joseph Poller from the Puler Prize and he built one of the most successful media businesses and he was doing around this time of the civil war. That's how he got to America. He was a very poor he was a Hungarian immigrant by the time he's 17 years old. his father and seven out of his eight siblings have died and from like disease and so he has to come fight in the Civil War because he has no money and there was a bunch of wealthy American businessmen that were trying to to seed the Union army and they figured hey we'll get a bunch of European men say if we'll pay for your passage over here and if you survive you'll get x amount of money you could you start a new life in America that's how polish got to start >> now he built uh his media at the time was he had two of the most successful newspapers in the world including the most successful newspaper in the world now the negative part of his and where he kind of laundered his reputation by seeding the Puliter Prize and the Pulitzer School of Journalism is that he also is credited with the invention of yellow journalism. All yellow journalism is now is like exactly what we see when we open up Instagram or X. It's just sensationalism, violence, sex, things that just speak that for hundreds of years, thousands of years have peaked human interests. So, not that it's good for you, it's just that you're interested in it. It's >> compelling. So if you read this book, cuz I always get shipped because people are always like, "Hey, like you don't I don't know anything about current affairs. Like I don't pay attention to news. I don't read newspapers. I don't look at any of that stuff." And so I get a lot of stuff about this. And my thing is like if you just read Joseph Polish's biography and William Rand Purse who copied his career off Puler like I did and you'll see the connection like why am I doing this? >> Like do that first and then say you should, you know, redline this negative information about something's happening 3,000 mi away or 5,000 mi away over and over again for your brain. 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Right now, you can get a free AG1 welcome kit that includes a bottle of D3K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drink ag.com/modern wisdom. Speaking of poor immigrants that come to the United States, do you know what that cigar is? No. Do you know where it's from? Cuba. The last factory that's still handrolling cigars in El Titan de Bronze Calo. the little Havana in Miami. >> Yeah. >> And that's the same street that your grandfather walked down. >> Oh, that's funny. >> When he arrived in Miami with nothing. >> That's incredible. >> Yeah, that's incredible. There's uh I guess like it goes back to chips on shoulders chips and pockets. It's like uh I think one of the I have like this weird interest, right? Like you know this I have basically four interests. It's history, podcast, reading, and entrepreneurship. And the entrepreneurship thing is really really important to me because like you said like my grandfather was a poor uneducated person in Cuba. He was 38 years old. He had a a newborn son which is my father. He had two jobs. He was a butcher and he worked in a shoe factory. And Castro takes over. And somehow a man who had no education, did not speak English and had no resources realized what was happening and realized I have to get me and my family out of this country right away. And he comes to America. He's an immigrant to America uh and rebuilds his life. Now, he made a bunch of bad decisions once he got here, too, that I've learned from and avoided. Like, I didn't ever go to prison like he went to prison. But that one decision, I'm always fascinated by this because like that one decision of a man that I don't remember meeting cuz he died uh when I was really, really young. So, I have no memory of him. It's like literally changed the trajectory of my life. And one of the most important things about growing up in South Florida as a son of a Cuban immigrant is I would constantly 9, seven, 10 years old meet people that came over here on rafts. I was like, "This is such a weird thing. It's like that's a one-way trip. Where are the Americans going to the end of Miami Beach and putting their kid on a raft and hoping you could get to Cuba? So, I kind of inherently understood that I was born into a very special environment. No control of I didn't make that decision. >> His decision changed the trajectory of my life. And I do think one one thing I'm trying to do with the new show is like, hey, I I'm very pro capitalistic. I'm not I'm against crony capitalism. I like people that build products and make other people's lives better and then spread those products and services to more people. And as a result, they can generate wealth for themselves, for their employees, for for shareholders of public companies like John Mackey, founder of Whole Foods. >> I've spent a bunch of time with him. Uh we become friends. He was one of my first guests on my new show. And his whole thing, he he grew up in he was a hitchhiking hippie dropping acid in Austin where we are today, right? And he's just like, "Hey, I think that Safeway is poisoning us. I'm going to make a Whole Foods grocery store, right?" And then do that for decades. Fast forward two decades of him just having that idea. It's like, I just want a place for people to shop to get healthy food. And as a result of the appreciation of his stock, he was telling stories on the podcast. He's like, these are normal people. They were stocking shelves. They were checking you out. They were bagging your groceries and they got stock options. And because Whole Foods was successful and they played a role in that, they were able to send their kid to college. They never thought they'd be able to pay for college. They were to buy a house. Those things should be celebrated. We should be given a platform for people to tell these freaking stories. >> Find a simple idea and take it seriously. >> Oh god. So, you even I think have made fun of me. The fact I won't stop talking with this guy named Todd Graves, >> chicken guy. [laughter] >> Okay. I have some fun I have some hilarious stories. I don't even know if some of these I can't tell on the podcast uh because now me and Todd have uh become friends. So, Todd Graves, I think the episode I did on him was like Todd Graves and his 20 billion chicken finger dream. So, this is going to take a while, but this is worth it. So, Todd Graves has this idea. His init initial idea is I'm gonna remake what In-N-Out did for cheeseburgers. I'm going to do for chicken finger meals, right? He's like, I'm gonna have a super simple menu. Like very You go to Raisin Canes. You have basically an option. Do you want three chicken fingers, four chicken fingers, or six chicken fingers? People are like, "Oh, you should make a chicken finger sandwich." Okay, that's fine. I'll take two pieces of bread and put my chicken fingers on it. There's your chicken finger sandwich. It's the the the He's been running these businesses for 30 years. The menu has not changed in 30 years. He's like, "Oh, In-N-Out is successful in California. Why can't I be successful in He started in Louisiana in Baton Rouge in LSU was his first uh was his first restaurant. Just selling one item but doing it better than anybody else just like In-N-Out tries to be the best hamburger, you know, than anybody else when when Harry Snder uh founded the company." And that idea of find a simple idea and take it seriously is is a maxim from Charlie Mer who's a hero of mine who I talked about the last time I was on your show. And what you'll what Charlie spent six decades, seven decades studying is he wanted to study extreme business success. And what he realized is like oh what we find in business and I would say in life because me and you were doing this with podcasting is the winning system all often time goes ridiculously far minimizing or maximizing one or a few variables. M all the people that we talked about, all the people I've had on my show, all the successful entrepreneurs that you you that you'll talk to our our study, it's like you realize they have very simple businesses, even if what they're doing is super complex. Like what's more more complex about shooting a rocket and landing it. But if you read about Elon, he's like all he talks about is simplifying, taking the idea very seriously, deleting, reducing complexity. So Todd Graves, his whole thing was like, well, I'm going to sell, his original idea was, I'm going to sell Chicken Fingers better than anybody else. Uh, and I'm going to do it to drunk college kids. That's what he thought was the total addressable market that he had. And then he realized, so he thought, I'm going to be able to sell to you when you're out drinking, but he was also open during the day. He starts getting busy during the day. And because he just focused on doing one thing and doing it better than anybody else is if you wanted the best chicken fingers, you're just going to go to him. And so even when he breaks down like he's got like three or four moving parts on the on the menu. It's like the chicken fingers, it's the coleslaw, it's the Texas toast, it's the fries, there's nothing else. And then he doesn't separate himself from the customers. So like you could draw he's got 900 when I talked to him a few months ago uh on my show. He had 915 stores all owned, no franchises, by the way. He was growing faster in year 30 than he'd ever in his history. So he's adding like another hundred. How old is he? 52. No, no. He's 53 now because he started the company was 23 years old and you you can drive into a Raising Gaines and place an order and everyone and Todd Gra is the one giving you the order. He his his business card says fry cook, cashier, CO. So sometimes he's handing you the order out of the drive-thru, sometimes he's in the one like literally dumping the chicken into the oil and doing it because there's no separation between him and his customer. >> And his idea was just like, well, it's it's served in boxes, right? He goes, "As long as that box that I give the customer is the best box they ever get, they'll just keep coming back and back and back." And because he'll never sell the company, the reason I say it's a $20 billion chicken figure is because he owns over 90% of the company. It's valued at least $20 billion. He's rejected multiple multiple billions of dollars in acquisition offers. He says, "I can't sell it." because he believes, this is going to sound crazy, but he truly believes that that God put him on this earth to be good at chicken fingers. And he's building this business so he can build a lot of wealth and then help people. And so he does a ton of charity work, supports a lot of people, and that's what he does with his money. One of my favorite stories about billion-dollar ideas. Uh Joe Hudson, his daughter came bouncing down the stairs after he'd been talking about businesses for a while, over the last week. He was a VC for a good while, raised, I think, maybe hundred million dollars over his career. and his daughter came bouncing down the stairs and she said, "Um, I I finally got it. I've got my billion dollar idea." He says, "Oh my god, it's it's a it's a an idea that you think is worth a billion dollars." She says, "No, no, that that's what I I didn't think that's what it was." No, I've got an idea that I wouldn't sell for a billion dollars. >> Isn't that cool? >> Yeah. >> It's such a better way to frame a billion dollar idea. >> Yeah. >> What is something that you would do that you could build that you wouldn't sell if somebody offered you a billion dollars? I I get a lot of [ __ ] for this in um because obviously a lot of entrepreneurs listen to both my shows. And listen, it's none of my business what you do. I'm not concerned with other what other people do for their lives. I don't give advice. I I just like build the life that I want to build. But I'm not interested in like start, scale, sell. And in some cases, like I've had good friends of mine, so they know it's a joke. They'll call me like, "Hey, I sold my company." I'm like, "Oh, sorry to hear that." Because it's like what the whole point in my opinion is like you want to get to your last company. You want to get to the idea that you want to what did I say when I was on your show last time that if you love what you do your exercise should be death. >> Like I just got done saying I get sad when I don't podcast. It sounds [ __ ] ridiculous to a lot of people but like I took two weeks off of not having these conversations. My life is deficient. Some people do grow. Some people have phases and periods. I loved running nightclubs for a while. Not going to live running nightclubs forever. And that was time. There was a time and a place for that to happen. Uh everybody goes through periods. Now, some people manage to land on the thing which is an infinite game for them and also fits their personality across time as they age and mature and change. But I would say and that that's the key all the experiences that you had you you couldn't I think you use the word speedrun all the time. You couldn't speedrun that. You have to go I was 32 years old before I found my path. It was another five and a half years before it was be able to pay my bills. >> Like some people Kobe Bryant found it at 13. Could you imagine how crazy that is? Like finding your life's work that early. I read this the bunch of biographies on the founder of Cadillac, Henry Leland. He found a Cadillac when he was 60. He found a Lincoln Motors when he was 70. Took him 60 years to find his path. >> That's the point. It's like there's not like a time you have to do it by, but all these experiences should in my opinion should be getting you to the thing where it's just like it's not about a dollar amount. It's not about an acquisition. It's not about a sale. It's like you literally I love this so much you couldn't pay me to stop. >> Yeah. The loudest boos come from the cheapest seats. Making mistakes is the privilege of the active. So, I had this incredible conversation with Dana White and I I've been a massive fan of the UFC for a decade. Um, but even a maybe even a bigger fan of Dana to the point where like I'll watch the press conferences, his press conferences that he does, they're usually like 20 30 minutes long after fights of the fights I didn't even get to see. He's just a phenomenal communicator. And one of the things I most admire about him and his life stories, one I I I I think it's very important like the way he is on camera when you're watching press conferences or on a podcast. He is exactly there is no difference between the person you're seeing and the person and interacting with him in private which is really uh I think really admirable and fascinating personally fascinating to me. But what you real realize about him is, man, he's like, you know, he built the largest combat organization in the world and he's got tens of millions, maybe 100 million followers throughout all different platforms. And he just gets so much [ __ ] about the way he's running his business. And so you sit down with him and the loudest boos come from the cheapest seats. That's from this guy named Russ who you had on your podcast. That that episode was excellent, by the way. >> I love Russ too. actually just talked about him a bunch on this episode I just did with Steve Stout because Steve Stout's done a bunch of phenomenal interviews with Russ as well. But what you realize about like Dana and really anybody's like if you're going to do something in the world, it's like Dana could put on a fight like the fight he just did at the White House. That card was incredible, right? Five fights. I think it's the only time in UFC history was five knockouts. There's still people complaining. It's still you should have done XYZ, you shouldn't have done this, you should have done that. It's like and his whole thing is he just like cuts all that stuff out. And the the second part of that quote where it's like making mistakes is a privilege privilege of the active. He on the episode and in other interviews he'll talk over and over again. It's like oh yeah like I [ __ ] that up or I made this mistake. It's like if you're going to do anything it's refraraming the mistake is not oh it's something to avoid. It's like yeah that means I'm trying. >> It's very high trust. It's one of the best things that you can do as an employee. If you mess up own it as quickly as possible. Yeah I [ __ ] it. when someone starts to hedge and cajul. Even when Dana got pinned for that situation with him and his wife in the nightclub immediately he just took it on the chin and I think that you can tell a lot about somebody by what happens when they're backed into a corner socially like that. He just owned it like so he so after we recorded so he's got this insane setup in his office I should talk about. So, he's got his office, right, which is in has like all these crazy art and like uh like little pieces from his his career memorabilia and these crazy quotes on his uh his walls, which I'll get to in one second. Then the other side, he's got this insane like professional like professional um sports team level gym that only he and his friends work out in. And then the other side of the record, he's got a bar because he loves smoking cigars, drinking whiskey, and then he has entrepreneurs come in every day. I think he took like I forgot what the number like over a hundred meetings maybe 200 meetings last year of entrepreneurs coming in. He loves entrepreneurship more than he loves fighting. Yeah. >> And he just like gives him advice. Sometimes he does investments. He just like wants to [ __ ] and like hang out with people building companies. He's just like obsessed with that. >> But so we spent a bunch of time afterwards and he's showing me throughout his office and he goes, "You might have heard of this little dust up I had with my wife." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm familiar." [laughter] And so he goes, "After that happened, I put that on the wall." And right when you're walking out of his office, it says, uh, "May God have mercy on my enemies because we won't or I won't." [laughter] >> There's a a clip that I just sent to Jared. It's my favorite Dana clip. >> You can bet against me. Bet against me. Tell me it's not going to happen. Tell me it's going to fail. I [music] love it. I love every minute of it. >> Okay. So, there's a reason on the you me and you were talking about the episode I did with Dana before this and I kept bringing up Todd Grace because like when I sit across from somebody, I I have this thing where it's like natural pattern matching. So, like Dana is talking, I'm like, "Oh, that's kind of like like Rockefeller did or Henry Ford did or like and I kept getting Todd Graves vibes." Because Todd Graves said the exact same thing where he's just like, "I need people to tell me that I'm going to fail." And he's like, I just use it as fuel and energy that I love people telling me they can't that I can't do like what I want to do. And Dana is the same way. Dana has another great quote uh that I was watching when I was prepping for the episode where he's just like uh he goes, "I'm the world's best friend, and if you want to be friends, we can do that. But if you want to be enemies, I can do that, too." >> [laughter] >> Wow. >> [ __ ] That's good. >> Yeah, he's really really good. I could talk to I mean I told him I was like, "Listen, I'm just going to if it's cool with you, I'm going to drop in with this film crew every like six months because I could talk to him an hour over and over again. The guy never runs out of stories." The funniest thing that's ever been said on my podcast came from Dana White. It really pisses him off because if you think about how much struggle went into to building UFC into what it is today, it's like they bought it almost bankruptcy for $2 million. They dumped another $40 million into it. This goes back to what we were just talking about. Like you love it so much that they couldn't pay you to stop. They lost money for like seven years. He wasn't making any money. And he tells this great story of his partner uh one of the brothers is the first year they get into the black meetings they're making profit. They're writing out like all the revenue on the board. And Dana's like, "What does that say?" And he goes, "Saids you're going to make a million dollars this year." It's like, "Wow, that's incredible." Dana's a multi-billionaire now. Like multi multi-billionaire now. But he was just happy just to make a million dollars after seven years of failing. He's like, "If I just do that, I could do this forever." >> Before we continue, most people in their 30s are still training hard. Their protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. The margin for error starts to shrink. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of timeline. You see, mitochondria are the energy producers inside of your muscle cells. As they weaken with age, your ability to generate power and recover effectively changes even if your habits stay strong. Mitoure from timeline contains the only clinically validated form of urethylene A used in human trials. It promotes mphagy, which is your body's natural process for clearing out damaged mitochondria and renewing healthy ones. In studies, this supported mitochondrial function and muscle strength in older adults. It's not about pushing harder. It's about actually supporting the cellular machinery underneath your training. If you care about staying strong into your 30s, 40s, and 50s and beyond, this is foundational. Best of all, there is a 30-day money back guarantee, plus free shipping in the US, and they ship internationally. And right now, you can get up to 20% off by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's timeline.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout. Successful people listen. Those that don't listen don't last long. Okay, so this is shocking because if people know that's a quote from Michael Jordan. So if you ever seen The Last Dance, people think, "Oh, Michael's this like tyrant. He's this dictator. He thinks he knows better than anybody else." And uh there's this great book called Michael Jordan in the life. It's like 700 pages long. Uh it's by this guy named Roland Lazby. And I've read that book twice. It it fundamentally changed my life. And in that that that I found that quote in that book. And we realize like, no, no, Michael's a sponge and all he wants is useful information that's going to help him accomplish his goals. And so a lot of this, this applies to business. It was like, I went to Ed Catmill's house to record a podcast. Ed Catill is the founder of Pixar, right? Pixar has made they invented the the first computer animated film. They make some of the best films for families and for kids and for even adults that that watch it. And he worked with Steve Jos longer than anybody else. He worked with Steve for 24 consecutive years and he speaks a lot about it. He's like the the the way he's Steve is described Steve Jobs described in the media compared to the person I knew. It's not the same person. So he always tells these stories and ads this this color and he goes, "Hey, uh Pixar was a public company for 10 years before Disney acquired it for like $7.6 billion." In that 10-year period, this is Ed telling me the story now. Steve fired two members of the board of directors from Pixar. What most people don't know is why he fired them. And so I asked Steve why he fired him. He goes, "Well, they those two people, they never disagree with me." And so therefore, if they never disagree with me, they're not adding any value to the company. >> It's like successful people listen, those that don't listen don't last long. He what Steve understood, what Michael Jordan understands, what all these people get to talk with professional understand. It's like there's no upside in being wrong. And so it doesn't matter if you give me you you're the reason I started doing video podcasts. You remember having this conversation years ago? You like you, we don't have to like >> you're [ __ ] Exactly. So, it's like I could have been like, "Oh, what does Chris know?" Well, he's got the eighth biggest in the world. Maybe he knows some [ __ ] Maybe I should benefit from the fact that I get access to him cuz he's not doing it to like criticize him. You're like, "Hey, you could be doing better here. You held me accountable. It's like you can you should be doing this. You can do doing a better job here." I think people get confused a lot of the time when it comes to taking feedback, taking criticism and they assume that uh you know committing yourself to one thing, being on this path, disregarding the chip on the shoulder. They incorrectly pattern match or they they they ignore advice and think that it's self-belief and that's pretty dangerous because you're just stuck in local maxima there. Like you're never going to reach outside of that. And uh yeah, I I think an awful lot about looking for humans who are able to update their worldview like um strong opinions loosely held uh as opposed to loose opinions strongly held, which is what most people have. They haven't really arrived there with conviction and vigor. They've just kind of tumbled backward. They've uh sliding not deciding into whatever their worldview is. There's there's actually an interesting story um in one of these books I read where uh Charlie Munger when he was trying to convince you of something he would first state the best counterargument and what that tell you after you know he's very verbose and he would talk for probably like 30 40 minutes before he's going to let you talk. I had dinner with him and uh I'd say he spoke 99% of the time which is good. He was has all the information. What the hell am I going to say? But uh what I thought was interesting is like what does that imply? means he thought about this so much that he could start with the best counterargument and then essentially rebut that counter-argument and say why he believes something different and I think that's like an excessively valuable skill. I've never even heard of anybody else doing that. >> Mhm. Wise people don't solve problems, they avoid them. >> No, wisdom is prevention. That is lit. So that's a munger quote. Wisdom is prevention. And uh he had a this is the experience of when I went and had dinner with him and um this what you realize is like you know any if you live long enough I think he has another quote he's like if you live long enough bad shit's going to happen to you it's like inevitable and you read his early life and it's like he had the worst possible thing that could happen. He was going through a divorce. His nine-year-old son uh had leukemia before it was curable. And so his nine-year-old son's like literally wasting away and he has to like watch his son die slowly and he would leave the hospital and like walk around the streets of Pasadena just ball crying his eyes out. He's like probably 35 maybe 38 years old when this is this is happening. And yet you spend time when you realize like he is just like nothing can face him. He's like problems are inevitable. And his whole thing was like well it's you're not smart because you solve problems. You're smart or you're wise because you avoid them. And so the advice that he gave us was like if you just focus on being around really really great people, like a handful of really great friends. You know, you don't need many. There's probably a limit to how many you could have. Maybe four or five really like people you're going to do life with for your entire life. You know, they love you. They're high quality people. They're not shitty people. He has this other side of this is another Charlie Marrow. He says most he's like uh most people are rat poison. He's like there's a lot of just evil and lowquality people out there. You should avoid them. So you build relationships with great people, people you love and you can do life with. And then you find great work. And once you find the great work, you stay in that great work. You don't jump around like you do that for the rest of your life. And by surrounding yourself with great people and having work that you feel is great and beneficial to the world, that avoids that eliminates most of the problems that are under your control. And then life will still throw up problems that are outside of your control. Your kid gets sick, you get cancer, whatever the case is. But the the the smart thing is to is not to solve the problems. The smart thing is to prevent them from occurring ever. >> Yeah. There's a an insight that it's far easier to date somebody who compensates for your shortcomings than it is to fix them. That you are the sort of person that likes to go to bed early and you've decided to get into a relationship with someone that wants to go out partying until 3:00 in the morning. Maybe your 9:00 p.m. bedtime is a personal failing because you feel like you need to have more control over your life than you actually do. Maybe it would be beneficial for you to work through that in some way and and loosen up and you could go to bed at 11 o'clock and 12:00 or something like that. Or you could just get into a relationship with somebody who compensates for your shortcomings and he's like, "Actually, do you know what it is? I'm not going to make you feel insecure about that thing. I want to go to bed at 9:00, too." so many of the situations that we end up having to we have basically a frustration budget in life every single day and it gets sapped out of you by all of the different interactions. Let's say uh you're going to dinner and your friend that you're hanging out with is just like really annoying and every single time you go for dinner you're super annoyed by them and then the next morning you wake up and you've got to deals with some real things at work that you can't get away from or that's part of a mission. You're like, I have less in the tank to be able to deal with this issue because of the situation I went through last night or because of the fact I had to stay up till 3 in the morning because the girl wanted to go and watch some [ __ ] DJ in some nightclub or whatever and now I'm tired and I didn't even want to go, but I did it because, you know, I'm going to compromise. It's really important to compromise. Wisdom is prevention. Like just avoiding problems altogether where you can like problems are inevitable and they're going to come and smash you in the face. choosing like there's no nobility in meaningless suffering. There's nobility in meaningful suffering, but there is no nobility in meaningless suffering. And I would say like there's a great uh uh quote in Spanish that that'll translate. It's like uh this person will drown in a cup of water. And this is what I mean like the first part of that is before you you find your life's work and and uh like hopefully you're doing something that makes the lives of other people's other people's lives better. It's like you have to ruthlessly edit who gets access to you. Like the first episode I ever did for the new show was Daniel, founder of Spotify, right? And if everybody always asked me like, "Oh, if you had a uh if you could have like a personal board of directors from all the people you've read about, all the dead entrepreneurs, who would you be?" And I have an answer for that. And they're like, "What about for a living? Like, who would be your personal board of directors be?" I was like, "I'd only need one." And it's like Daniel, the advice, the reason he was the first guest is because the relationship we've been able to build and the friendship we able to build. It's like he's like the wisest one of the wisest people I know. I call him Swedish Buddha. >> He's like he built one of the greatest apps and technology companies in the history of the world, right? And did an an unbel had endure unbelievable struggle to do so. But he's just very wise and he he almost all of our conversations I was just with him a few months ago. We were racing cars outside of Stockholm. Um, and we stayed up late one night and his whole thing was just like I still have notes from the conversation. Just like he's like, "Man, you just have to ruthlessly edit who's around you." He's like, "You're just like we said, like the mind is powerful place. What you feed affection in a powerful way." He's like, >> especially you, you have a huge platform. I can't imagine what your freaking text messages or inbox look like. Yeah. You coming on your show could literally change some people's lives. And so the problem is they're going to give they're going to act in a way to you that's not their real self. And so Daniel's point about this was just like, you know, if you if you feel you're developing a friend with somebody, have other people you trust, then go and spend time with this person because the way they act with you might be different from them. But I'm telling you, all these people, and I've built a lot of friendships with a lot of guests I've had on my show, the the amount of times they have told me, it's just like everything comes down to the quality of people that you have around you. Your life is your relationships. That's another great maximum. Your life is your relationships. If you have a bunch of shitty people around you, like you're going to have a shitty life. They're going to cause drama unneededly because they they will drown in a cup of water. >> And if wisdom is wisdom is avoidance, is prevention. >> You you have I've cut a couple of these people out of my life and you know way less than I have to now because I've been so like I have a very small circle. I would say I just talk my natural tendency is not to have a thousand shallow relationships. It's just talk to the same half a dozen people over and over and over again. And when I doing that I can be by myself. I'm very comfortable reading a book, making a solo podcast. Like, I don't give a [ __ ] I don't need to go out and like constantly socialize and expose myself to like the vagaries of others, people like uh like corrosive and destructive behavior. I'm not interested in that. >> Create according to your own taste, not for applause, critics, algorithms, or market demand. >> This is Rick Rubin. Like, you and I, we just talked about this. We just both read his book, Creative Act. And towards the end of that book, he has this thing called like the house on the mountain test. And here's the great thing about reading books about people and then getting to talk to them. Like you get you get to to go deeper. And I want to tell you a story about James Dyson. We can get there in a little bit. Uh I think it's really important about this. But what Rick Rubin's point was just like your north star in whatever you're doing. He the metaphor he used. He goes, "Let's say you bought a house. It's on a mountain. It's so so remote. No one is ever going to see it but you." He goes, "Do you not put in your best effort to decorate it and to design it just like you would want it done? Like you're the only person that's ever going to see it. No one's ever going to visit. What do you do?" And the answer to that question, that is your revealed preference. That is what you actually want to do. And so when you look at Rick Rubin's career is what does he do? He just makes the music that he wants to listen to. He is not He says over and over again, don't think about the audience. Don't think about the customer. Don't think about the end user. like you're probably not unique. Me and him talked about this. You're not that unique. So if Rick Rubin likes this song by Johnny Cash that with a guitar and just, you know, and just this guy's voice, what's the chance he's the only person in the world that likes that? Probably 10 million people that like the same kind of music Rick Rubin likes. Just like me and you, we talked about this before we started recording. We make the podcasts that we want to listen to. We both are obsessed with podcasts. They've made our lives benefit uh benefit they've benefited our lives immensely. I've learned more from reading a podcast than I ever did in school. Like I'm just making the stuff that I'd want to listen to. I listen to them before they come out. >> Could you imagine like your life is making a podcast and you have to listen to it before it goes out and you don't like it? >> Doesn't make any sense. So I think that that the idea of like the metaphor of you're designing a house on the mountain, no one else is going to see it. You should design your life that way, too. There's parts of your life that you share with other people, but there's huge swasts of it that only you know. You should design those uh those parts of your life same exact way as the parts that other people see. >> A rule of thumb for anybody that makes things on the internet, would you consume your own content? If not, don't post it. >> I was with you one time and you asked somebody and there was a 30 second pause. >> Yeah. Yeah. And after 30 seconds of >> you know the answer. >> What? I'm like, dude, if it takes more than 5 seconds, the answer is [ __ ] no. >> Yeah. >> Raid your own life. create a grand theft life. >> Okay. So, you told me before I missed this episode of yours, but you just did this like round table. What do you call these round table episodes? >> Rabbit hole. >> Rabbit hole with Tim Urban. >> Yeah. >> Tim Urban like I don't know 10 years ago wrote this crazy essay on Elon and SpaceX and Tesla. He kind of predicted a lot of the [ __ ] that occurred in the last decade. And he had this thing called Grand Theft Life. And what he realiz realized about Elon was like his ability to step outside of himself. So me and you are going through life all the time and we're kind of like right now I'm looking at you. >> My view is a lot better than yours is, right? Like you're a lot more handsome than I am, but like this is my experience and you're kind of get like siloed into like this is I'm just experiencing it as it happens, right? And this started because Toby Luk, I'll go back to Elon in one second. I sat down with Toby Luke, founder of Shopify, which again is probably my favorite conversation that I've had on the podcast so far. And he has this idea. Again, he's when he says this, he's running a $200 billion company. And he goes, I like to take the view that a cor I am a corporate raider. I did not start Shopify. I do not run Shopify. I have now extracted it from the owners and now I'm the new owner. And the previous management was crazy. And then I go through and look at to every single other thing I would change. Why do you need to step aside? Because like if you're just going through your day-to-day, there's so many problems he's not seeing. You have to step back. in Tim Urban's uh Grand uh Grand Theft um essay uh that he was writing on Elon. It's like you see that Elon does that. Me and you were talking about this before where it's like okay if you look at yourself as if you're playing Grand Theft Auto like your character you play Grand Theft Auto my uh my character needs money so I go my character goes does jobs now he has more money. My character is stamina he's running from the cops. He needs better cardio so I take him to the gym. You just literally say like from the outside, me and you, and I hope you don't cut this from the podcast, we had we were in Hawaii together and we had many many late night conversations about issues with women that me and you were both having that I swear to God if there was a there was just a casual observer, right? Just listening. They were just like, "Chris, David, this is these are simple solutions. You just can't see them because we in like I could see what was wrong with yours and you could see what's wrong with mine." So this idea of just stepping out your side and I love the idea that again putting into entrepreneurial terms like some guy is now taking over my business or taking over my life. What would he change? >> Yes, you need to pause and you need way to step back and go through this right now. >> George has got this idea where he talks about um imagine that there was an evil version of you, a man with a mustache. What would he do to beat you? >> What would another version of you >> with the mustache do to beat you? or that question of if you had 10 times the agency, what would you do? But with that situation, it's like you know where your shortcomings, where your biggest shortcomings lie. Like there's going to be this person, okay, they would be way more decisive. They wouldn't they would uh need less certainty in order to reach conviction because I know that I I I spend too much time vacasillating and flip-flopping back and forth and I I I don't commit so quickly. And I know that the version of me me with a mustache, he would arrive at the outcome way quicker because he wouldn't be doing the flip-flopping. Or he would be more cutthroat when it comes to um not giving people third and fourth and sixth and seventh chances because I keep doing that and he keeps on burning me. That's what he would do. And then you just go, "Okay, just just do that." >> What What would your answer to that for your own life be right now? The decisiveness thing I think is probably not far off. Um my required level of certainty in order to make big decisions is quite a high bar and that's led to me making very few mistakes. Like I haven't made every business that I've started has succeeded. Uh almost all of the projects that I get involved in are very good. But it also if you're not failing, it's probably an indication that you're not moving quickly enough >> because you could move a a headroom for moving more quickly is probably still quite high and you would still end up with a pretty good hit rate. Uh so something like that. How about you? I think especially the last year the biggest mistake you get distracted especially because like um there was like a slow build to founders podcast. Never like it's like I was like a frog in boiling water cuz it took five and a half years to break through another like it was like eight before it was like any substantial thing. >> Three three and a half four for us. >> Yeah. So like you it was that was great. It was actually like in hindsight I wouldn't change anything cuz this was like oh I'm still the same person. I don't feel any different. Yeah. Where the new one because I had an existing audience and it kind of like so it was like disorienting how fast >> my life changed. And then this is it goes back to Daniel Ek and why he'd be like my uh you know my sole person on a living board of directors is uh he's just like just stay away from the circus. That's the advice that he would give me over and over again. Um so the evil version of you that's trying to beat you with a mustache would just get less distracted. He'd be more simple. >> And this is what I've gone back to doing where Daniel's advice is just like uh we just had this phenomenal dinner in New York and then uh he was driving me to a friend's house and he's just like your life is very simple, man. Jesus is like he's like if you just sit in a room and make podcasts and don't do anything else, you know, obvious spend time with your friends, take care of your health, but like you don't have to go to [ __ ] dinners. You don't have to go to conferences. He had this conference called >> just sit in a room and make podcasts, says the guy that owns Spotify. You think there might have [laughter] been a somewhat of a uh >> No, cuz he's he just stepped down. I promise you it's not like No, no, no. Cuz like my my shows are always going to be somewhat niche. like your show will always be 10 times bigger than anything I do because I'm just narrowly focused on entrepreneurship. >> But what the advice because I remember texting I was like, "Hey, are you are you going to Brilliant Minds?" Which was his conference >> and I don't think he was there this year. He goes he goes, "No, and e neither should you." And that's when he decided he goes, "Just stay away from the circus." >> Well, this is similar to if you do everything, you will win. >> No, that's okay. So, we can get to that in one second. So, let me finish this because I think I like that you asked the question. And it's like really helpful for me to now kind of do Grand Theft Life and now step back and say what I would do. So I was like I I have work that I really like to do. I really like to read books. I really like to make podcasts. You know, I like one-on-one conversations, maybe one. I can't do like group stuff. I'm very introverted. It makes me very uncomfortable. I think like and then I've got to figure out like the dating part, the girl part. But other than that, like I think the distraction is >> Did you talk about something to do with this last time that like so many of history's greatest entrepreneurs have been totally [ __ ] with women? Like they're just [ __ ] hounds or they're unable to hold a a relationship together. But I don't know whether to give them their due. I wonder whether part of it is less they're bad with women and more the traits that make you a very successful elite level entrepreneur, the kind that you study probably give you some traits that make it difficult to be in a relationship with you. So I wasn't expected to talk about this but there I have some interesting ideas. So there's this great book that was written by Arnold Schroinger's girlfriend. He had a he lived with his girl when he was 21 to 26. So he was still rel again he's dominating this weird niche of bodybuilding but he's not the Arnold that he's going to becoming but he's the same person. So you see it's coming and it's 300 pages of her just be like why is this guy not acting normal? It's like cuz it's Arnold. He's one of the most driven people in the world. I could have solved that for you in 10 seconds, right? And the end result when I made the episode on that book was like a su a successful entrepreneur or anybody chasing after somebody you need a supportive spouse or no spouse at all. Right? And that and that's the key there. What I would also say is uh I've been talking to this guy. He considers himself like a consultant to some of the most famous people in the world. Right? >> And what I find interesting is like he can essentially pattern match across let's say a hundred of the most famous people in the world. These are like mainstream celebrities. This is not like me and you, right? And he talked about but and some of these people also happen to be captains of industry because Elon's one of the most famous people on the planet. He's not one of his people he talks to but and he goes the problem that these people have is when you're really successful like that you you have an expansive personality. That's the word that he used expansive personality which means the more you succeed the more you want to succeed. >> Napoleon said this in French and you could u translates into appetite comes with eating. Usually you eat and you're full. These kind of people, the more they eat, the more they want to eat. So his point is like these people also have usually bad relationships because there's a ton of infidelity, right? Because it's just like they're expansive and in every element of their life, they're they're increasing their skills. They're maybe their movie is getting better bigger, maybe their business is getting bigger, they're expanding. But in this very narrow but very important part of your life, which is like your romantic side, you're expected to not have those same personality traits. Now, I don't have that issue. I am can stay with one person at a time. Um the the issue that you have is like whether it's a very close friend, a business partner, a spouse, these are all very similar relationships like they they look a they're very deep partnerships and so you have to be take your take be very careful to make sure you're picking the right person and >> especially you because you're handsome, rich, super famous. Like you have I've seen some of your dams, okay? Like you have a [laughter] I hope we cut in that laugh over there. Yeah, make sure you add that in. Um, like you have so many people trying to get to you that want something from you. That doesn't mean they're good for you. And that's where you have to be careful. That's where you have to be somewhat paranoid. Most people have no idea where the testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low tea faster than a high school bully and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where function comes in. gives you access to over 160 lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone paddle. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged and you get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So, if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play Creed louder in your car, Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with function, it's $365 a year. That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So, get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's what discernment is, right? being able to distinguish between good and not good, between somebody that's got your best interest at heart and doesn't. >> You know, the advice I've gotten from some of the, you know, the most successful people in the world about this, they're just like, make sure that she's a good person. Like that's it. They just have to be a good person, but good people are few and far between. And what I mean by good is like not selfish, not doing this just because of what's good, what they get out of it, and willing to. And in many cases, dude, Jimmy I Okay, Jimmy I got to talk about this because this guy's the best. So when people used to ask me, hey, you know who who did you want to meet, you haven't met, Jimmy I, I'd have a list and Jimmy I would be in top three and people like that doesn't make any sense. Most people don't know who Jimmy is. But one of my favorite documentaries is this documentary called The Defiant Ones. Have you seen this? No. >> You got to watch it tonight. So it's a four-part documentary. It's technically supposed to be about the relationship, the working partnership between Jimmy Aine and Dr. Dre that's been going on for decades. It is really one of the best documentaries about entrepreneurship and these kind of wild personality types. Dr. Dre is a wild boy. He is a He was a probably highly likely a child prodigy. The best in the world he does. Jimmy, same thing. He he is in the music business for five decades and has succeeded from engineer to producer to record label executive to building a business that's selling and selling it for $3 billion to Apple. And so I Jimmy was on my show. We live close to each other. He's nice enough that I get to hang out with him and like talk to him on the phone and hang out with them all the time now. And it's what's fascinating is when you talk to these older guys that are I think Jimmy's probably 70 years old by now. >> He's got more knowledge about life in his pinky than I do in my entire body. >> Like he's just lived through. So he's just seen everything. And his biggest thing was >> he's like if you want to be successful he's like you probably don't want to be successful for a year for 5 years. You want to do it for a long period of time. And he's like I've been around some of the most gifted talented people in the world. He's worked with everybody from John Lennin to Bruce Springsteen to Tom Petty to Dr. to Dre to Eminem to literally everybody and out of the one he's like most people the advice he gave me is like most people cannot handle success. >> Yeah. >> You're not destroyed by by a competitor. There's not going to be another Chris Williamson coming in here and out competing you in podcasting. You're going to do if you're going to fail, you're going to do it yourself. And what Jimmy said, he's like they fall into four buckets, which I thought was interesting. Number one, drugs. I don't do drugs. Not going to be an issue. Like I avoid them. Alcohol. Second one. I don't really drink. Number three, uh, Megalomania, because remember, he's in the music industry. He's like, "Listen, you start out. I mean, Kanye, I think he he I'm a huge fan of his first four albums." I think this is what happened some in my opinion, what happened to him. It's like, and Jimmy was saying, it's like really hard that like you get on stage every night and there's 80,000 people telling you, screaming your name and telling you how great you are. The problem is to come off that stage and then still be dad or husband or friend, take the trash out. >> Yeah. and and you not think and then what happens is the reason he calls it megalomania is because they loved you because of the work you put in. The megalomania thinks now you think you're some you're not even human. You're like some kind of like god. So therefore I don't I just show up and it happens and they they stop putting in the work then it shows up on the work and then there's death spiral. And then the fourth thing was women and Jimmy I has been very uh he he's like very open about this. that's in the documentary where he his dad was his best friend like best friend talks every day. Jimmy was dating a Playboy playmate and [snorts] his dad died suddenly unexpectedly. They did not see it coming and right after his dad died he decided to get married and he says on the documentary we've talked in longer detail privately but you know it's just like I married the wrong person. He's very beneficial of all the kids and he's got great relationship with his adult kids now. He talks to his kids every single day. But he's just like that the wrong woman in your life, the wrong man in in a woman's life can literally destroy you. And so I think that I think this is like we could we should have an entire podcast next time we come here. We just talk about the stuff we've talked about privately. [laughter] >> Yeah. [ __ ] me. >> But it is it's it's a very hard part of your life because I do consider it almost like a drug. Like these people don't start out, hey, I'm going to get addicted to pills or heroin or alcohol >> and they're smart and successful. It's arrogant to think that wouldn't happen to us. So that's why I think it's so important to like talk about it. >> Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. I had this line from earlier this year. What you are praised for in public, you will pay for in private. >> Mhm. And a lot of the time the single-mindedness, the resilience, the motivation, the permanent growth mindset, the attention to detail, the unwillingness to compromise, the hypervigilance, the anxiety, dedication, all of these things. In the business world, it's called reliability, consistency, uh, uh, non-quititness. Fantastic. in the boardroom can often make you a forgotten person around your kitchen table. I had uh Andy Stump, Navy Seal, on the podcast and he said, "I built built my entire identity around being a guy that doesn't quit." So, it made me an amazing SEAL team member. Also made me stay in a marriage for a decade longer than I should have done. >> Yeah, >> I don't quit. Not the sort of guy that quits. You know, there are certain domains in which the things that you do publicly aren't meant to be applied and a lot of those are the ones that happen privately. And then when public and private begins to sort of mesh and blend together, that's what we get with modern social media, right? That you can't see the distinction between the two. And and the problem is like you're constantly comparing like your relationship to other people's ideal relationship, which is very destructive. And what what I would say about this is like you you talk about being hyperrational. I think you approach your business. I [ __ ] know a lot about your business. Like you're very rational. I actually don't think we should and I don't want to and will not do in like your romantic life. I think you have to like you should be a little bit irrational. It is it is definitely like a a more irrational emotional thing. That's why I think the advice that I keep getting over and over again is just like make sure the person that you're letting into your life, the one that you have a serious relationship with right now is just a good person that they actually care about you that they actually want good things for you because it's not going to work if you try to approach it with like a rational mind. It is default irrational. And what I would say this is something like um so we we have a good friend um Sienna Laroka. >> Yep. >> And one of the conversations I have I had with her was just like what are you lying to yourself about? >> Yep. And this could be an entire discussion at dinner because everybody's lying to themselves about something and what I didn't understand about myself, especially until I started the new show because I was just I was sitting in a room by myself for a decade like talking to myself like no one was around and I always thought like I didn't need anybody and like I'm a loner and like you know other people aren't that important to me. And I realized like no that's a lie. Like I had just a lot of lowquality people around me. But like if I could have access and develop relationships and friendships with high quality people, that is my drug of choice. Like I remember when I went to record with Todd Graves, we flew into Baton Rouge and recording the very first Raising Canes that he built with his own hands. He built it with his hands. It's insane. And I remember calling a good friend of mine. He's kind of like he's like an older brother, like a mentor, like a coach. Um and I called him and I was like, "I'm in trouble." And he goes, "Why?" I go, "Cuz I'm already addicted to doing this. I feel like I'm high as a kite right now. I've never done ecstasy. I've never done MDMA. I have to imagine this is what it feels like. I want to do this all the time. Um, and so I guess like what I didn't understand, what I was lying about myself was like that relationships weren't important to me where >> the truth is they're more important than anything else. So I'm sorry to monologue to you, but I think let me just get this out real quick if you don't mind. I desperately did not want to be a loser and that's why I'm a workaholic and I've worked full-time since I was 15 years old because I saw up and down my family tree. I was just [ __ ] terrified of winding up just like them. And this is the chips on shoulders chips in pockets. Like I I I'm not a strategic person. I genuinely just throw a lot of hours and effort. I don't think I have any strategy. >> Um and so I thought forever like my my work is how I protect myself because it's it's gives me my independence. It allows me to build a world that I can control because I didn't have control when I was younger. It allows me to take care of family members and other people to help. And it's like it's my thing. It's the only it's more important. If you were asking, it's like more important than anything in my life. And I realized that that's a lie. Like if you ask what's the most important thing in my life right now, it is my relationships. It's building and maintaining and deepening the relationships I have with people that are very high quality that I love with everything. Now, right underneath that, my work's like bumping up against it, but this is still my number one priority. And I think also you'll see for people like you, you're super driven just like I am, you for you forgo some professional success if you want like a deep romantic relationship. And I would say that's what like makes life worth living. You should do that. You should make the irrational choice. How do you square that circle with the single-mindedness that most great people have? >> I don't think you can. I think like there's an eb and flow like if you look at a snapshot of like my own life, right? Where undoubtedly I think I would be even more I would be more successful if you didn't take out the huge chunks of time to build these relationships both romantic and friendship wise. But that's not the kind of life I want to live. Now I've met people like that. I know some of these people have been on my show. You get around them and and you literally like where's all your friends, dude? They're not that's not important to them. that's not what they're going for. They're they're playing a different game. What I'm saying is like that's not for me. Like I want I'm not saying a balanced life cuz I'm definitely not balanced, but like I relationships are more important than my work. That's just how I feel. Far fewer people than think it are introverts. Like you're probably not an introvert. Your friends just suck. That's a that's a great way to think about it. >> And if you had better friends, you'd want to hang around them. There's like everybody has been at a dinner table and adored the conversation and not wanted it to end. Yeah. >> Okay. Well, what what happened there? Did you change for the evening? No. I was just around people that resonate. I was around people who I usually don't resonate with, but for some reason, they were really on form that night. Well, you can just get friends that are kind of on form all the time. And you can also hang around with people who are never on form. I I've had friends of mine tell me this. It goes back to where we were saying the mind is powerful place. Switch your feet affect powerful way. They're like, man, you got to be real careful about the way you describe yourself. And I think around this, I kept saying, I'm introverted. um like I I want to be alone, all this other stuff. And this is like that's not how you are. To your point, I think it's more of like an energy thing. Like the conversations we have, I leave George Max's treadmill. >> Yeah. >> If you put me in a big party with a bunch of strangers, I'm like, there's no energy and I got to run away. So, it's more like, am I getting energy from this or am I very uncomfortable? Is it draining my energy? >> If you go to sleep on a win, you'll wake up with a loss. So, this is actually a Conor McGregor quote uh that he said um I'm pretty sure it's in the documentary called The Notorious, which again, he did the whole Kanye thing where he's like poor kid in Ireland. He's like in collections, not paying his credit card bill. I think he's working part time as a plumber and somehow he had the the foresight to to have a camera crew follow him around, document his life because he was just so convinced that he was going to be the champion one day and he's going to be one of the most successful professional fighters of all time. And it's interesting that some of these people don't take their own advice because they they get to to Daniel X's point, they entertain the circus. They go to the events, they start buying, you know, loving the the material rewards, the drugs, the women, all the stuff that comes with, you know, success. And one of my personal heroes is a guy named James Dyson. One of the best days of my life happened, I think it was last maybe October, maybe November in New York City. I got to spend a few hours with James Dyson. I did an episode with him. And the reason this was so important for me, people like the vacuum cleaner guy, like what the hell is you talking about? It's like, no, no. Out of every single biography and autobiography I've ever read in my life. And I think as of today, it's like 425 or something like that cuz it correlates with the the founders episodes I've done. If I if you only read one book, it'd be his first autobiography, which is called Against the Odds, an autobiography by James Dyson. Because it's not about today, you fast forward, he's 78 years old. He owns a 100% of one of the most successful private companies in the world. He wouldn't sell it. I had a friend that tried to buy it. He he guessed my friend that tried to buy it that if James would sell it, fetch between 60 to 80 billion. James has no outside shareholders. That's 100% of it. My friend put a flyer out to him saying, "We want to buy your company." He paraphrased the response that came back from Dyson, which was, "Fuck you. This is a family heirloom. It's not about the money. >> He's a he's an engineer. He's a designer. He's obsessed with the work that he's doing." So, it's that book is not about this. It's not the 78-year-old James Dyson. It is the Dyson in his 30s and mid-40s that is just failing for a decade and a half over and over and over again. 5,126 failed prototypes. The 5,127th one is the one that worked. It's the James L that's going to bed cuz he's working in a carriage house which I I guess is like a garage in England. What is a carriage house? >> No idea. Never heard that. >> I had to look it up. I thought it's in the UK so I figured you know. So, it's like a detached little workshop outside your main house. I think it's in Bath, England where he might where he is where he's failing all day long. Walks inside, passes his little his kids, gets into bed, cries himself to sleep. Then his kid is four, sees him failing. His kid is seven, dad's still failing. His kid is a teenager, dad is still a failure. And so, the reason this was so important to me is because I knew I wanted to podcast. I knew I loved it more than anything else. I have this irrational love of podcasting that people make fun of me for and I'm fine with, but I was having no success. It was not that like I wasn't making any money. It was I was it was costing me money to do this. My my savings went down every month and I for some reason wouldn't quit. And one of the reasons I don't think I quit is because episode 25 the the very fir time I read James Ice's book is I read this book and I'm like, well, this guy struggled for 14 years. Like I can give it a go for a year. Went up being five and a half. I didn't think it'd take that long. But like just knowing that story and rereading that book over and over and over again, it just I was able to relate to him. I was like, "He didn't give up. Why do I have to give up?" Like, do you know how good you're going to feel if you get to the other side of this? And I did have a lot of faith that I would get to the other side of it. And so when you meet James Dyson though, like I read his first autobiography at least five times. I read the highlights from that book hundreds of times. This is not a joke. It's not I'm not exaggerating. I read his second biography which he wrote when he was in the 70s twice. I read he has he wrote an encyclopedia when he was like 45 or 50 about he's obsessed with inventions. It's called a history of great inventions. It literally like somebody printed out a Wikipedia page of like 200 um inventions with handcrolled notes. I there's a picture of me and James going through the book me showing him like me annotating every single thing. >> And so be able to sit with him I thought I understood him completely and there was still this is why it's so powerful to be able to talk to these people. First of all, he sits across from you and you realize that he's built he doesn't he's not a he's not a absentee executive. He does the work. He's he's on the the manufacturing line. He's in the engineering meetings. He's in design meetings. So you sit across from him. He's a very thin guy. His fingers are probably twice as wide as mine are. Why? Because he's been working with his hands. Like if look at your biceps like your How many curls did you do to get those biceps? how many like him tinkering with his hands that did that he get he's got massive fingers they don't fit the rest of his body because it's like a lifetime of tinkering it's incredible but then the reason I say if you go to sleep on a win you wake up with a loss is like most people they have success then they're like I [ __ ] made it look at me I'm the best and they forget it's the work that got them there not them it's tied to the megalomania thing where Dyson is not like that at all I didn't understand his organizing principle and so this is what he said he said okay I pick up a product right I look at it I think about How can I make it better? I make it better. I put it back down. Short mile while later, pick it back up. How can I make it better? I make it a little bit better. Put it back down. And he went through this over and over again. I think he used a coffee cup in in the episode. It's been, you know, 6 months. I don't remember. And he goes, "And I just didn't I just did that for 45 years and never stopped." That's the anecdote to the anecdote. I don't know if that's the right word to going to sleep on a win. He never slept on a win because he likes the the activity itself. He just he has an engineering mind. Everything around him, he says it doesn't torment him, but he'd see this table. He's like, I think I could shave off a little bit there. I could fix that. I could do that. That's how his brain just works and he just loves it. He's like a giant puzzle. And that's I think that's the way to do it where it's like, man, if you just love the activity for the sake of itself and you never stop improving it. Like you're not going to fall prey to the failures and disasters of like a Kanye or a Conor McGregor or any of these other people you see. >> It's fascinating that that was a quote from Conor McGregor, somebody that's had one of the biggest falloffs in history. >> Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. >> Did you know your gut controls your energy, your recovery, how well you absorb everything that you eat, and the one nutrient that keeps it all running properly is fiber? Well, it turns out that 95% of Americans don't get enough of it, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Momen's Fiber Plus. Most fiber supplements are a one-trick pony. One type of fiber solving one part of the problem. Fiber Plus is a threein-one formula built to tackle digestion, gut barrier strength, and blood sugar stability all at once. I use this every single day. It is kind of hard to get enough fiber just through food alone. And best of all, Momenus offers a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it, try it every single day for 29 days. And if you don't love it, they will just give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemus.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom a checkout. Yeah, I I I've kind of been obsessed thinking about the difference between what it feels like to have fallen off and what it feels like to have never made it. I I would rather never make it. I am This is another thing where you're surprised. Like I've talked to Michael Dell about this, Daniel Eko about this, Todd Graves, Brett Jacobs, like all these every single person I just mentioned is worth tens. Michael Dell is worth like $200 million. And he's just like it's not the love of success, it's a fear of failure. It's like for me that is my worst nightmare that like I I I do mean that like I would rather never make it than make it, right? And then lose it. And so this is why I I I wanted to say something earlier that you just you just prompt this thought. It's like it's weird because like I'll meet with like young entrepreneurs a lot, right? And I feel like the middle child because I'm not my 20s anymore, but I'm not 70, you know? And so I'm in both of these worlds. And the advice I give to these like 25 years old, I go, you should go and spend some time with like a 65year-old, 70-year-old, like like try to get an afternoon with Jimmy I who's in his 70s who's seen everything in the world or a James Dyson who's seen everything in the world. Like we we have this guest list that uh we want we want to get and it's in reverse chronological order by age because some of these guys like I got to sit down with Charlie Mer, never got to record a podcast with him. Now it's that opportunity is gone. Same thing. Got to sit down with Sam, never got to a podcast with him. They have all this knowledge and all you have to do is just like sit down and they'll they they're already down the path that you're that you want to go on and they'll say, "Hey, watch for that pitfall there. What don't don't turn right when this is going to happen to you." Cuz you realize like everything that happens to us is not us. >> If somebody else was sitting in your position, they'd be getting those DMs, too. >> Like they just would. It's not you. It's the position that you're holding. >> Um and yeah, I think it's like super important. People say I have a fetish for old people. I don't have a fetish for old people. just like I I want to avoid the failure, the the the se the success and then the decline in failure that you see so over and over and over again. >> There's this interview in 1999. Eminem said, "I ain't in this for the money. I'm in here for the respect. If I had a trillion dollars and I fell off, I'd be the most miserable person in the world." He grew up in poverty, but he favored status over money. He stayed he favored skill set. So, what um he he has a line that I think um fits into how I view my own work. And he says, "A plaque and platinum status is whack if I'm not the baddest." And what he what he was saying at that point in this is 2003 when I think the Eminem show came out, 2002 maybe. And his whole point at that time is like every rapper had the same goal. I want to go platinum because then you get a plaque. So that's a plaque and platinum status is whack if not the baddest. His contemporaries, his peers were like, "I'm good because I sold a million records. It means people I'm popular and it means I'm making a lot of money. And his thing is like I want to be the best. I don't want to be the biggest. I want to be the best. And this is why you and I have talked about the craft of podcasting so much >> and about like we we had a 30-minute discussion with George before we started recording about like how do you pick guests? How do you think about things? Like we we obsessed with this stuff. It's like I want to make something that I could point to like I could tell my Jeff Basil says this great line. He's just like we're trying to build something that we can tell our grandkids about and such things are not meant to be easy. So in his case like he should be very proud of building Amazon. It's one of the best companies ever created. Right? I am very very proud of some of the things that I have made and I have a daughter. So my daughter is 14 now. I just recorded this episode with Mr. Beast which won't be out for several months. Um but she was a huge fan so she got to come with me and meet him. And Mr. is a massive fan of my first podcast, Founders. His Spotify rap, he'll screenshot and send it to me. It's like Founders is number one on there. And for her, I'm very proud that somebody she admires is saying, "Hey, your dad's work is like really valuable to me." And she came with me to record with Todd Graves. She loves Canes and she knows the Spotify like her favorite app is Spotify and my friend uh runs her favorite brand, Mad Happy. And all these people are telling her like, "Your dad's work is really important to my life. You should be proud of him." That's like that's worth more than money. It's worth more than a million dollars or 10 million that you'd get if you sold 10 million or a million records. >> I do think it's more addicting and it's certainly more fulfilling to be admired by people that you admire. And it's one thing to just seek status. It's another thing to seek money, but to seek status and respect in the eyes of people who you have judged to be worthy of admiration inside and I would say outside your industry for sure. And even more important inside. >> Yeah. the fact >> they have the highest amount of taste. >> I think you opened the last episode we did together. You're like, "Did you hear my Q&A where I said you're the podcasters podcaster?" >> Correct. >> It's like I And I do this to this day. I go around and collect more data on podcasting podcasting than anybody else. I sh and we share it. We like we don't hold anything. And in one case, uh I remember my friends David and Ben who did the acquired podcast. Uh I was on a walk with David I don't know like 3 months ago in San Francisco. He's actually taking me to the airport cuz we're just good friends. And I had found an idea from Rob Moore and Andrew Huberman that I gave to them in terms of like you have a skew, you have an asset in your podcast that you're not currently monetizing and it's very valuable to advertisers and this is what they might pay. And I told David this idea and on the walk he's like hey by the way thanks for that idea. We're going to make $3 million from that idea this year. >> Mhm. >> And it's just like >> I stole the same thing from Rogan back end of last year. >> Yeah. Ex. Exactly. So like the point is like it's all positive sum with us. It's like uh I consider the the the historical analogy for for me and you is like the filmmakers, right? If you study the early days when George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and Francis Forcopla and Brian Dealma and all these guys were in their 20s, they were friends. They hung out. They traded secrets. They watched each other's movies. They gave themselves feedback because at the end of the day, if you go watch Stephen Spielberg's Jaws today and George Lucas's Star Wars tomorrow, what did Stephen Spielberg lose? Nothing. What did George Lucas lose? Nothing. It's like all positive stuff. Kind of is pointless doing the big journey thing if you don't get to share it with people. And if people are in tangential industries or even in the same sort of an industry, just being able to see the impact that you've had on somebody that you respect and admire and know that hey, like that idea that was the reason that David paid so much attention to video. That was a little that was just like a little a little contribution. That nice ripple >> our mutual friend John Kugan, right? just they just had this phenomenal acquisition uh with TPBN but well before even that I've been working with John and like talking about podcasting with John for years before he even even started TPBN and he was one of the first viewers of the new show and he's just like why are you guys only shooting on three cameras? Why don't you shoot five? And he explained why. >> And then me and Rob made the change immediately. >> You should try seven. Seven. >> There you go. But but we made but here we made the the change immediately and then we're all in a group chat together and Rob had mentioned, you know, we we had a good shot and I think John was like, "Hey, this shot looks good or whatever." You know, cuz again, it's it's both, hey, you can approve here, but this is also dope. Like, I like this. And Rob's like, "Yeah, you're the one that told us the idea." Yeah, thank you. J, can you pull up on the main TV? Can you just throw the profile shot of me up so that David can look at why you need seven? I'm going to explain to you. I'm gonna commit you to two more two more cameras. So, uh, we've always had medium, tight, and then the wide to kind of classic. I guess if you've only got three, you're going wide, medium, medium. But this shot where you go very side on. It's beautiful. >> It's really, really nice. And what you can do, you can reverse frame it. We haven't done it here, but if you move, so in fact, I can do it. I can do it by doing this. So, if I go like that there, you actually end up with a complete opposite framing. And uh that's used in documentaries typically when there's going to be a pivot in the story. >> Yeah. >> So someone's talking, someone's talking, someone's talking, and then there is a a moment where things are going to take a turn for the worst or something. It's the it's the uh the minor chord that somebody plays on the guitar and you're like, "Oh, something's about to happen." And it just feels very intimate. So that's why you need seven. Um >> season 8 winner of The Biggest Loser was this dude called Danny. Just to round out the difference between having never made it and having fallen off, I was watching the documentary about The Biggest Loser, accusations of it being uh predatory and bullying and and dangerous and people were getting [ __ ] cardiac arrests and being held out of there. Probably a big helicopter, I guess. And [laughter] he said there is an extra special shame when you feel being a failure. There is an extra special shame you feel being a failure after you've been a success. And um yeah, I mean the there is a huge huge ick that people have and this is going back to what you said that some people are just not built for success. Lewis Kapaldi is like my canonical example of this and I'm so glad that he actually managed to fix his issue and come out the other side of it. But he had all of the singing ability to be this billions and billions and billions of record sales artist. And he didn't have the constitution for a long time to be able to handle the attention. And so many people think that the problem, the reason that they're not famous and they're not where they want to be is because they don't have enough talent. to be in the camp of people who has enough talent but lacks the constitution to be able to handle the side effects of being that talented. It just has to be like it's got to be very uncomfortable. >> I want to like also like I think we should say something about like I don't think success like I think you should have an internal scorecard not an outer scorecard. So what I mean by that is like some people let society or other people define what that they are successful. So what I mean by that is like not that I have less downloads in the future. I don't even know how many downloads I get. I don't care. It's what I the definition of success that I use I actually got from Steve Jobs which was like did I make something I'm proud of. That's that's it. As long as I keep making things I'm proud of or if I the alternative of this is like you know how much time it takes to make a great episode. the amount of prep that you have to do. And for my other podcast, like I have to read an entire book. The danger there is that I give into the circus, given to the distractions, say, "Oh, I used to put in 30 hours of reading. I can do like six or I can read like the Cliffnos version and still be as good." That is to me is like when I consider myself a failure is like I'm not I'm no longer making things that I'm proud of. Now, you have to make things you're proud of. And also the other side of it is like you have to get it to in front of people and there's smart and dumb ways to do that but like so there is another element. >> It doesn't make sense to be the super cool underground band that nobody actually listens to. Oh, it's because they don't get it. They're not sophisticated enough. I think eventually you need to listen to the market. You're like you can be as proud as you want of the thing that you do, but your opinion in terms of taste might not be on the money. you there's a great line from David Olgvi who is one of the greatest advertising agency founders in history and he says you can't save souls in an empty church >> and if you feel that modern wisdom is good for people then you have a moral obligation to get it to as many people as possible if you truly believe that which I think you do I truly believe that people that are interested in building a business creating a product changing their lives in some manner which is what the the word entrepreneurship it's French for has ideas entrepreneur is has ideas and does them so that's why I consider podcaster an entrepreneur, a filmmaker, an entrepreneur, a person building Amazon entrepreneur. It's all the same thing to me. An athlete an entrepreneur. So, somebody has an idea that they want to see shape take shape and actually exist in the world. Um, and so I I I would say like if you believe that the work that you're doing is good for the world, then I would consider a moral obligation to get it to as many people as possible. David Sunra, ladies and gentlemen, dude, you rule. I appreciate the heck out of you. Where should people go to keep up to date with everything you do? >> Just search David Senna in whatever podcast player or YouTube that you're listening. Subscribe and listen. >> Join us the podcast this podcast and listen to Founders as well. All right. Goodbye, my beauties. >> Bye, >> dude. Yes. Yes. You did it again. So good. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you love. It's just here.